Jivana Heyman 0:00
Hi everyone, its Jivana. I just want to come on for a moment and thank our sponsor offering tree. They're an all in one easy to use community back business that saves you time, energy and money as a yoga teacher. Offering tree allows you to create a website in less than 30 minutes. Plus you get a discount for accessible yoga. Just go to offering tree.com backslash accessible yoga to get your discount today. Okay, here's our episode
Anjali Rao 0:33
Welcome to the love of yoga podcast. I'm your host Anjali Rao
This podcast explores the connections between the teachings of yoga for self and collective transformation.
We dive into how spirituality and philosophy can ignite social change. I share conversations with folks who are on the frontlines of justice and liberatory movements, thought leaders and changemakers, disruptors and healers.
This description of a thought leader and a disrupter. A change mica is befitting of my next guest ash Williams.
Ash Williams is an anti carceral and reproductive justice organizer. He has an MA in ethics and applied philosophy from University of North Carolina Charlotte.
And since about five years, Ash has been vigorously fighting to expand abortion access by funding abortions and training other people to become abortion, doulas.
And I've had the pleasure and the honour of having a few conversations with ash. And it has always struck me how deeply passionate, informed and articulate ashes and I cannot wait to dive into this topic of black spirituality in justice movements with ash. Welcome ash. And I'm so excited to have this particular conversation with you.
Ash Williams 2:14
Thanks AKR, I'm very excited to be here, and to be with the listeners.
Anjali Rao 2:20
And for those of you who don't know, I'm called AKR by many of my friends and students.
And it's an honor that Ash calls me that. So ash, wood, can you describe in your own words, what what is it that you do? Who is it that you are,
Ash Williams 2:39
I started to giggle a qkr. Because to describe what I do, and who I am, I don't know if we have enough time. But I know I don't think we do. I am a person, I think I'm a person. I'm from so called Fayetteville, North Carolina, I'm or I was a military kid.
Perhaps there are people who might be able to identify with that kind of carceral upbringing.
I am a community organizer, organizing at the intersections of gender justice, environmental justice, reproductive justice, racial justice,
and liberatory practices of freedom. I'm someone who believes in putting my mind and my body and my heart on the line to advance the values that I think are important, which are values, informed by care, and informed by like the autonomy of other people too.
I am a person who read, I like to read I'm a student, I'm a learner, I'm a teacher, I used to teach a dance. And before I caught a charge, I was teaching Women's and Gender Studies at the University level. And in my organizing work, I do a lot of different things. But one of my areas is political education, where we get to chew on those theories that we think we might want to put into practice. I'm really excited about reading and, and studying with other people about how we can use our bodies, our hearts and our minds to advance principles like freedom and autonomy and justice. And really, I want to know what those things what those things and other things what those mean to other people. And so I like to connect through books or other other spaces, other other texts.
Anjali Rao 4:41
Mm hmm. I love that. And I particularly love the connections that you're drawing between philosophy and spirituality in liberation movements, because I feel like there is so much of a disconnect sometimes that people think that these concepts are very esoteric abstract.
act, and hence something that we can study. But how do we really apply those teachings? And I really am always asking those questions of myself. And I hope whoever I'm in contact with. So what are some of those teachings that really inspire and ignite your work in the world?
Ash Williams 5:22
The teachings, so, um, for one thing, for one thing, I certainly believe that I am a student of the reproductive justice, history and framework. And so when I think about, like, when I think about applying certain teachings, and the teachings that are close to me and stood out to me, I'm thinking about the reproductive justice history, as well, as a part of that
there are these really fine, and kind of laid out principles that reproductive justice has for us. The first one says that every person should be able to decide if they will give birth, and they should be able to decide the conditions under which they will give birth. And then the second one, which is like, really, really what is the word audacious, it says that people should get to decide that they won't have a baby, and they should get to decide the conditions under which they will in pregnancy and gestation as well.
And I also saw here a KR, I want to bracket or kind of lay off to the side, right, like pregnancy and abortion and just dating. In terms of black spirituality, I know those things to be processes, transitions.
And in along the way, you know, white supremacy carceral logics, it is really kind of messed up for us, how we like ought to understand certain types of processes, certain types of transitions. And so here, I'm thinking about birth, and abortion as a type of transition as a process. And so Reproductive Justice says that people ought to decide like how they will undergo and experience these processes. There's a third principle that says that every person who exists in the world, we should live free from harm from another motherfucker, from the government, from the environment, from the state who wishes to do us harm, right. So here,
something like a cop city in Atlanta, is a matter of reproductive oppression. But so is something like ice picking up children from their bus stops on their way to school. And so is like the forced sterilization of Puerto Rican women for contraceptive pills. And these are so these are examples of what are what are called reproductive oppressions. And I love this framework for reproductive justice, because it says that we deserve to live free from these things. It also acknowledges that
the reproductive kind of burdens and barriers, they don't begin and end with things like pregnancy and abortion, but they extend to like family, community work environment.
And then there's a last kind of piece of this, this history of reproductive justice. And it says that we need to decolonize sex and pleasure if we really want to get back to maybe what like African and indigenous peoples were doing before. And like, along with centuries of like genocide, and really harmful types of oppressions, we have to kind of decolonize what we think we know about a thing we have to queer what we think we know about this thing, and able in order to understand it. And so sex and pleasure is on the table for us to decolonize. And here, I'm thinking like, what does it mean that we live in a culture where sex for example, is very taboo, but we also live in a very hyper sexualized kind of society that like goes so far as to like sexualized children. Like that's how far it can go sometimes. And there is this like, idea that like, we don't talk about sex openly, we, you know, and for me, these things are not binaries, but they are kind of things that make me want to kind of really think about decolonizing sex and pleasure.
And so I, yeah, I'm thinking about this, this, these, this set of teachings or the teachings that accompany the framework and the principles that I've named, and I think about how
Often returned to them. Throughout my work, whether that be fighting jails and prisons, or
trying to stand up against fascism in my community or stand up against the police who wish to do harm to us all, but specifically homeless and houseless people, I returned to these teachings, in order to kind of ground my understanding of an issue, but also to help me know what needs to happen next, if I want to attempt to address and a key part of this, this, the principles, and one of the foundations to them is that
we don't live single issue lives. And so our way forward ought not be single minded either.
And so I'm thinking about collaboration, I'm thinking about creativity, I'm thinking about emergent strategies, I'm thinking about working with other people who I know, you know, are concerned about some of the same things that I'm concerned about as it relates to bodily autonomy, and who really gets to decide if they will live in a safe and healthy environment. And what that really looks like. I'm excited to think about that with other people.
Anjali Rao 11:15
Whoo, you've given us so much to think about right now. And I really want to go back to what you said about pleasure and joy, and how that has been
treated with such a puritanical, sensorial lens, because of colonization, and capitalism. And a lot of teachings of yoga actually go to the the exploration of human experience. And pleasure is, of course, a part of that. So we are very much in sync about what you're saying. And sounds like there's a lot of overlap between, you know, black spirituality, indigenous thought, traditions, belief systems, as well as yoga, so to speak, in a very broad way. Is there anything that you want to share about that?
Ash Williams 12:17
Along with that setup that you just laid out for us, I'm also thinking about where so where grief and joy belong along that constellation that you've laid out for us so beautifully? Because I think it's up there too.
attached and entangled. And again, here, I wonder where and how, yeah, because I think, you know, we go back, we go to very binary ways of thinking, we're like, if, if just we define just as our liberation movements sometimes as something we are anti, what are we anti? What are we taking down? Rather than, say, thinking about how are we building it up? You know,
abolishing movement is about building something, we're building something which is pro people, rather than just taking down something which is anti, you know, so I think it's important for us to hold grief and joy and look at how our spiritual teachings are informing both of that.
Anjali Rao 13:26
So to go back to what you were saying, about standing up for folks, especially people who have been harmed historically, and who are still harmed by systems and institutions that are rooted in white supremacy. And in the past four or five years, when there has been so much of attack on the rights to reproduction, in a so called post show world. Your work as an abortion doula is vital service to so many folks who are seeking care. And I also was reading your interview in NPR, where you talked about offering gender affirming care for people who have who are seeking abortion. What can you share about this reality ash, especially in states that have banned abortion, and are and or severely restricted access to abortion?
Ash Williams 14:22
Thank you. I'm a qkr for another opportunity to like be at the intersections. And so what I want people to know here is that as it relates to trans healthcare, trans folks are underserved. Our care is under researched.
What people the extent to which the medical industrial complex will do will go excuse me to be able to understand how to show up for us better, like it's not happening. It's not it's not there.
And when we when I think about abortion care, I'm thinking about still
All gender affirming health care, trans health care. And I am I understand and know, based on my own experience in the experience of others that trans folks are being under met here as well. I'm talking about what it looks like to go into an abortion clinic and have to show your legal documents and no one asked you what your name is actually is or what your pronouns are. And from the kind of onset of this decision to have an abortion, there is this kind of inherent misgendering
for First of all, you know, people are considering every person who is pregnant, to be a mother, to be a mother with a capital M, this is an issue, we need to really unpack this. And for trans folks, this presents another kind of layered problem as it relates to accessing care.
I don't know for a cisgender person going to a health care appointment, i I can only imagine how it might be what it might be like for them to continue to be misnamed continue to be misgendered continue to be undermined about their body about their care about what they need even. And that is a that is the reality that transgender people are experiencing when they have abortions. And when they interact with the medical industrial complex in general, I'm talking about going to the dentist going to a primary care appointment, and having an abortion, which is already always like a
something that is kind of marginalized.
And I one of the things that I aim to kind of
achieve in the practice of being an abortion doula is to really meaningfully and intentionally serve queer and trans people, making sure that I'm naming them the way they want to be named gendering them the way they want to be gendered, and that I'm understanding their identity, their pronouns, their sexuality in relation to how they want to be understood as a person in the world to, and I'm able to use my experience having two surgical abortions as a transgender person, I'm able to use that when I show up. And I definitely remember what it felt like. And I try to fill in some of those gaps. By asking people about their partners, and giving space, that there might be more than one, I make sure that I am attentive to if folks have any, any particular concerns, I asked them about what we can do maybe to make it a little easier when they go into that clinic. And so also a KR, sorry, Arthur's barking a little bit here. But the care that I am kind of offering people, I want it to be an example for how the medical industrial complex ought to care for people. And I know that's such a pipe dream. But I, I also want it to be an example to the person that like this is how you should be treated. Every time a caregiver, a medical professional has an idea about like touching you, they should ask
it is during caring for someone around their abortion, that I get to have these conversations about consent with people about what it should look like when they go to a right a different kind of doctor's appointment.
Or how it should be the kind of the idea that they should be allowed to ask questions, and also naming that there is a big power dynamic between themselves as the patient and the doctor and maybe the other people who are showing up to care for them as well. And I I understand myself as an abortion doula as like, working beyond the medical industrial complex, but in some ways, a part of it. And so it's really important. And it's important for me to make sure I'm not repeating these harms that people may have faced as it relates to their health care.
Anjali Rao 19:21
Thank you, thank you for sharing that and your experiences and your work.
It is it is absolutely integral and inspiring, if I can use that word, to even just hear you speak about it. So thank you so much ash for sharing that. How can we support you how and you mentioned that, you know, you really are interested in collaborating working with folks who are doing this well being in some sort of a connection relationship with folks who are doing similar work in other justice movements, perhaps? How can we support you and how
Give me support other folks who are providing the service. How can we be in solidarity
Ash Williams 20:07
in order for us to move into a time and a space where everyone is really critically interrogating things like the gender binary, and the way that or the role that like white supremacy plays as Americans understand gender and sexuality.
It's so important for us to, are i I'm remembering that.
Like, there's a lot of work for us to do. And I'm also remembering that if things are changing, if we're going to see more paradigmatic shifts, then it means that people are trying, maybe they're fucking up, but at least they're trying. And so I want to like first encourage people to like, critically interrogate the way that the gender binary, and also things like carceral logics show up in their own lives. And then after they do that, I think we can start to maybe have a conversation about some of the things we're talking about today. But, you know, when I am sharing with students and organizers and people who want to get aligned or be more involved, I remind them that, you know, you don't have to be an abortion doula to affirm someone's decision to have an abortion, or to support someone who's decided to have an abortion. You do not have to be an abortion doula to use gender neutral language, for example, as it relates to abortion care, and all types of reproductive care.
You don't need to be an abortion doula to help someone get to their appointment or pay for their procedure or to receive the pills in the mail? Because they can't, none of there isn't anything required to answer this call. Right.
And I want people to know that, and I want people to know that it's going to take all of us doing our little part, whatever that may be, to kind of changing the culture as it relates to abortion. And as it relates to,
you know, LGBTQ inclusivity. And I'm saying that word like, oh, like, I'm not, I'm not asking to be included. But I need people to get out of my way.
Anjali Rao 22:23
Yeah, yeah. Beautifully said.
Jivana Heyman 22:28
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Anjali Rao 23:28
I agree, I think the word inclusiveness and
all of that has been bandied about so much. But what we really need for folks to understand is that we don't want to be included, and I speak for myself as a person of color. I just want people to pass the mic. And you know, just
get out of the way like you said so beautifully. I absolutely agree with that. In your What would you think is an example of how people can dismantle or understand carceral logic in our lives in our everyday lives? Can you share an example?
Ash Williams 24:09
Here I'm thinking about and think thinking about like calling the cops I'm thinking about how a must we are kind of trained not to think this way. Many of us consider the police as people who might be able to answer
to two or four violence that happens in the community. And I'm thinking about how one thing that we can all do, I think is to train ourselves to kind of rely on the police and the state a lot less and that means opening our hearts and trusting our neighbors and people we don't fucking know more. Yeah, but you know, that isn't. That seems exciting to me as it relates to like, it's either that or we allow the people
least to figure it out with us. I think that they have given us
clear examples about how like what happens when they show up or how they figure things out. And when they figure things out, people die.
People are traumatized.
People go without. And I think that's something different happens when we rely on our community. And I remember the time that someone, like offered to me, reminded me that like, I didn't have to rely on the police. I'm thinking here about getting into a car accident, for example, sometimes folks are thinking that the first thing they ought to do is call the police. It's not actually a necessary thing. Both for like the people involved and the insurance company, I did have to kind of go back and forth with my insurance company once a little bit.
But and for the majority, majority of insurance companies, they don't require a police report to kind of attend to vehicle damage or collision. And
I am also like, like, I'm reminded about a workshop that I taught around, what, six years ago, my friends in my community, it was called, don't call the cops building alternatives to calling the police. And we went through these scenarios of being in the car, having a car accident, we also went through a scenario of intimate partner violence. And then, like a home invasion, and a qkr. Like, what, what kind of came out of those spaces is that
the way that we need to respond to violence or harm for us as individuals, like it's not actually up to us as individuals to figure those things out alone. And so what I was what we were trying to do in kind of demonstrating, like, this is the space where we're figuring it out, like what would you do asking each other questions, but also building the knowledge base to be able to respond collectively? Yes, but first it first it takes trust yes and no that like there are other people that are also interested in doing this thing with me, finding justice with me dismantling white supremacy with me, and then I can do it. Even my abortion doula work in these criminalized times being an abortion doula alone with no, you know, group to be accountable to or ask questions to or like, that knows, you know, what, I'm gonna what I have going on? It wouldn't it just can't be that way anymore. And so we've got to whatever our work is, we've got to do it with other people.
Anjali Rao 27:51
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I really like that, that you're talking about knowing our neighbors. I mean, that's like step. That's like a small thing that that we can do. And it's I think one of the most important integral thing is to really build connections, which are authentic. That's one of my favorite sort of tenets that I talk about and hope to practice and embody, is really have relationships that are authentic, rather than transactional. And building that trust, because what colonization did was really disrupt those connections, it made it all about trusting the so called state and the institution to provide some sort of service and then that was capitalized, of course. So I'm so appreciative of what you talked about building trust, and having those connections, those relationships, those friendships. And that's, I think that's the only way we can shift a culture which is so deeply embedded in individualistic framework for everything, including social change. So we are we are working on this together, we are co creating this reality together, we are reimagining this world together. I think that is what comes up for me a lot with what you shared. And I appreciate that so much ash, how does black spirituality inform and inspire justice work for you? You have shared a little bit about that in the beginning. Can we go back to this question?
Ash Williams 29:25
Yes, it kr? Absolutely. I'm thinking here about binaries. Black and white, life and death, birth and abortion.
And I'm thinking about how black spirituality actually, like asks us begs us to refuse these binaries.
Here I'm specifically thinking about again, one of my like teachings, that's dear to me, which is that abortion is birth. Abortion is a type of birth
One of my teachers taught me and it blew my mind and I what but what so what I understand that them to be saying is that abortion is a process. It is a transition. So is birth. But also like, I mean if you want to get to the nitty gritty in the tech, the technical things of it, miscarriage and abortion,
they are medically the same things. If a doctor was to induce a miscarriage or I'm sorry induce an abortion, it would look the same as a miscarriage.
And many of the
care techniques many of the physical comfort measures some of the medications even I'm specifically thinking here about the abortion medication misoprostol, it is used in birth. It is used in other types of reproductive processes. And and we can think the medical industrial complex. We can also think white supremacy, as well as the institutionalization and the medicalization of birth for this binary thinking. I'm literally talking about how they used to have babies and have abortions in the same part of the same hospital. And now, where are the abortion? Where do the abortions happen? And these clinics outside of the hospital, like many people don't know that abortions used to happen in the hospital? Because that's how regular regular smuggler they are. And they were and people knew that, you know, it's okay for people to receive the same kind of care in the same part of the hospital by the same caregivers. And here in thinking about granny midwives, along with that institutionalization of birth came this
removal, this institutional removal of black women, black caregivers as knowledge bearers,
getting them out of the hospitals, making them pass tests, when,
at the same time the medical industrial complex is modeling, how to catch babies off of what black enslaved and formerly enslaved women were doing.
It was It is the granny midwives who would go and teach the white young nurses, the white young midwives, how to catch the babies how to help the parents. And so I'm thinking about this this lineage or something. I'm thinking about what we say decolonizing I'm thinking about this. Sankofa ik Sankofa, this black spiritual idea about going back and get it Sankofa s a n Kofa Sankofa, it means to go back and get it.
It means that we've got to like, look to the past to inform what we need to do in the future. But it also means that like, there's not going to be or like we can't go into the next time without something from before.
And so for me, when I think about black spirituality, when I think about this sin Copic logic, I think about it being all about busting binaries and breaking down these binaries, and showing that entanglement
Anjali Rao 33:22
100% Agree, I'm nodding my head very vociferously. Because I really, really emphasize emphasize that we really have to know what has happened in the past, because the past, the present and future are interlinked. We cannot divorce ourselves from what has happened in the past. And to know that there are many histories that we have to study from a know whose narrative we are using to inform the present. So I so appreciate you bringing that up. And I also want to ask you, this work that you're doing is integral of course, and I'm sure that there have been times that you have felt despair.
Ash Williams 34:09
One of the things that keeps me going and grounded AK AR are the people that need my support.
No matter what the Supreme Court says no matter what the legislators say, people will continue to have abortions and they will continue to need support. And I hoped to be someone who's there for them just one in the number and
I can't get too bogged down with all of the bands and the new creeping legislation because people need me to support them in getting to their appointments that they have that are coming up.
And that is that has been the greatest thing that can ground me. I also take care of myself.
And I'm a part of a community where other people take care of me too. And they make sure that I can keep going, whether it be by making sure I'm getting outside, or I have enough food to eat, or that I'm not working too much, and that I save a little piece of my care. For myself, I am encouraged by those people in my community. And I'm also encouraged by the need the need for support.
Anjali Rao 35:29
Beautiful.
Well, we really want you to be well taken care of. So please, I will share your links, anything that we can support you with any endeavor or just taking care of you because you're so needed in the world. Ash. Most of the listeners of this podcast are yoga practitioners, and one of the tenets of yoga is about a Ahimsa which is the practice of non harming, actively disrupting harm. And knowing our own role in in the collective having an engaged practice of yoga. How would you think we can actively disrupt harm in the world we live in now? You mentioned about shifting the culture,
building trust with our foe with the people who we live around with. I think those are two really important ones, is there anything else you can add to that?
Ash Williams 36:28
I just want to say or something even more basic, like just give just try, we have to try. If we're not being racist, or ableist or xenophobic, or classist, or transphobic, or homophobic, it's because we're trying. We live in a society that is fucked up, that is racist, that is a white, that gives us harmful messages about ourselves and each other. And so if we really want to figure this thing out, we've got to start with ourselves. And part of that is to just really just try, just try change the language. Don't laugh at the joke.
Tell someone that you want to talk to them about this thing that they said that like was inappropriate or rate, like, I think that's what we need to do. Like we don't
It's not rocket science a kr? That's what I want to say like, it's really simple. If we try, then we might be able to get it right. But if we don't, if we don't try, then we will never get it.
Anjali Rao 37:32
Right. That is absolutely wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And real. And I think, you know, most people are so overwhelmed. And they think that we have to fix so many things. So they don't really bother or they don't really question. And this is real to striving and doing the small things because they all add up.
So thank you for sharing.
Who inspires you ash who are the authors or thought leaders who you go to, when you really need to have that sort of belief or re imagination of the world.
Ash Williams 38:14
The first names that are coming to my mind are Sylvia Rivera, and Marsha P Johnson. Two trans women of color who are both have passed on now.
When I think about what they navigated in their lives, and how we I see myself fighting for a lot of the things that they fought for and against, and they are kind of just important figures for me and my black spirituality. And so I have pictures of them are remnants of them on my altar, i I wish to honor them every time that I you know, do something related to trans liberation, which is everything. But I they those they are important women to me.
And I'm thinking about trans women who are alive right now, one of my friends, I mentioned her a lot. But her name is Kannada because a Ray Brown, and she is inside a women's facility in North Carolina and in a prison for about 14 more months here. But I have been working with her for the last three years to transfer to a women's facility, but also get her gender affirming care while she has to be incarcerated. And she's another person that I really look up to. And she's taught me a lot about organizing and community. And
also she's taught me a lot about what it means to be an abolitionist who is trying really hard to be in community with people beyond the walls, like what I know about showing up for people who are in cages comes from her income from all the people inside that I, that I am able to communicate with, and so those people are really, really close to me too. And in a lot of ways I, I pause and I think about what they navigate.
Anjali Rao 40:15
And I think that I can I can do I can do something to do something to thank you. Thank you for sharing that. How can we support you? How can we uplift your work? How can we make sure you are cared for? Certainly anything we can share?
Ash Williams 40:32
No, not necessarily. But if you want to support me, you can you will donate to your local abortion fund, you will seek out your local abortion doula collective, and find out what can be done to support them. You will support and affirm people's decisions to have abortions if they want to, if they need that. And you will use gender neutral language when you talk about abortion and when you talk about reproductive justice. And that those are things that would really support me right now.
Anjali Rao 41:12
Oh, you're so wonderful. Thank you so much ash, for having this conversation with me. Your work is one of my favorite things to even think about in terms of how we can be agents of change. And I'm really, really grateful I consider myself a learner, of folks like yourselves who are on the frontlines of justice liberatory movements, and I'm really grateful and appreciative for you. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you for having me a KR take good care of yourself. Bye. Bye.
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