Jivana Heyman 0:00
Hi everyone, its Jivana. I just want to come on for a moment and thank our sponsor offering tree. They're an all in one easy to use community back business that saves you time, energy and money as a yoga teacher. Offering tree allows you to create a website in less than 30 minutes. Plus you get a discount to accessible yoga. Just go to offering tree.com backslash accessible yoga to get your discount today. Okay, here's our episode.
Anjali Rao 0:31
Welcome to the love of yoga podcast. I'm your host Anjali Rao. This podcast explores the connections between the teachings of yoga for self and collective transformation. We dive into how spirituality and philosophy can ignite social change. I share conversations with folks who are on the frontlines of justice and laboratory movements, thought leaders and changemakers disruptors and healers.
Hello, and welcome to the love of yoga podcast. I'm your host Anjali Rao. And today we will be delving into this really interesting conversation on liminality liminality. In laboratory movements. liminality is a term used to describe the process of transitioning across boundaries and borders, and has been an integral area of study of scholars exploring the process of social change. It's a space of ambiguity, sort of in between coming from the Latin word threshold. It is literally the threshold separating one space, be it physical, emotional social, from one another. It can mean many things from a space like a waiting room, or rituals that can help us transition from one part of our day of our life of the face in society to another. And to have this conversation we have, I think one of the most important voices in yoga, Sean Moore, and we're going to talk about liminality in laboratory movements. What does this mean? How is this important in our world? And how can we practice yoga during the spaces of liminality? How can we manifest this in our own lives? Welcome, Shawn. I cannot wait to have this conversation with you.
Shawn Moore 3:04
Thank you so much. Are you see I'm over here blushing. I'm like, thank you for all the kind words. I'm super excited for this conversation as well. It's a topic area I love to explore. And so I just know that this is going to be a great conversation. Yeah,
Anjali Rao 3:18
yes, yes. So just for the listeners an introduction to Shawn and his work. Reciting at the intersection of leadership and mindfulness Shawn creates sacred spaces for stillness and self inquiry to help changemakers align their strengths, intention and impact. Through his integrative approach, he holds transformative containers with meditation, sound healing, yoga, Nidra and coaching. Shawn has worked in higher education and student affairs for over 10 years, specializing in leadership development, training, program design and workshop facilitation. And he transitioned out of his role as Associate Dean of Student Life and Leadership at Morehouse College in the fall of 2021, to focus more on mindfulness and stillness based training programs and workshops, and he does this all through a focused with this lens and 17 years of personal practice. In addition to holding community space through classes, he provides training and leadership and strengths based development, workshops and mindfulness and sound healing and also hosts a podcast called the mindful rebel podcast that creates a platform to continually explore this unique intersection of leadership and mindfulness. I think that is a really important and interesting conversation. And I hope we can talk a little bit about that today as well. Shawn, welcome to the podcast again. And can you share your personal journey into these transforming To practices what got you here?
Shawn Moore 5:02
Yeah, this is interesting. Now when we say like a superhero origin story, I always say this when I talk to folks and ask them about their origin stories. For me, my entry point into a lot of this work was actually through through Buddhism, right? I grew up black queer kid growing up in Baltimore, Maryland. And, you know, I always was a bookworm. I'm, I'm, I'm a self proclaimed nerd. I love to read, I love to learn. And one of my English classes, I want to say probably 11th grade, there was a book that was offered to us on our reading list, and it was Siddhartha by Hermann HESA. And that was the book that really sort of kicked off my my sort of spiritual journey, you know, back then, like, I think it was a different time, meditation wasn't the cool thing, as it is now. And, you know, there was something that gripped me in that story of someone figuring out the world for themselves, right understanding. And for those that might not be familiar with the book, Siddhartha, it's the fictional retelling of the story of the Buddha. And it talks about how he sort of felt the need to leave his posh life that he had and sort of figure it out. And he went and live with the aesthetics for its period of time went and tried a lot of different things, and found the path that made most sense for him. And for me, as someone who grew up and didn't see a lot of themselves in a lot of spaces, there was something motivational about that, that like, it's okay to strike out in a way that honors which you need, even if you don't see it happening in the world. And so there was something about that, that immediately sort of grabbed me in my heart, and connected me there. So you know, that's a young 11th grader reading that book, having this sort of profound moment, but then also sitting with this, like, I mean, I grew up Christian, like, you know, I like what I do with this. So for me, it was something that I just explored on my own for a very long time, through the rest of high school into college. And then fast forward into my adult life. I took that, alas, serious, and I wanted to connect with community and sort of leaned into the work a little bit more intentionally. And so you know, that meant taking my refuge vows and Buddhism, and then also sort of having this parallel track with the work that I do. So from a career perspective, a lot of my work has been in higher ed, and really, that's focused on like, personal development, I did a lot of work helping students grow their leadership capacities, and having this sort of parallel track with teaching meditation, teaching yoga, and at a really interesting point, really feeling like, does do these things make sense? Together? Right? I was really like, I'm wearing a lot of hats, right? Like, I'm like, Does this make sense, but there was a point in which I kind of figured out the connective tissue. And this is sort of how it gave me courage to sort of step into this world probably full time, right, that I realized that the space that I create for students and colleges, you know, I've worked at a lot of different institutions here in the US. In the space that I create for my students in a meditation class, a sound bath class, a yoga nidra class, they're all space for personal transformation, they're all space to help people explore who they are in a safe way, right. And when I realized that there was similarity there, I realized I'm like, you know, maybe I'm gonna lean into this a little bit more. And also, the pandemic played a really major role in that right, taking the time. And I think it's a perfect sort of connection. When we talk about like liminality, and liminal spaces, the pandemic really served as that for me that it forced me to slow down, as somebody that struggles with grind culture, somebody that struggles with tying their work to their worth, the pandemic, put an immediate pause, and made me rethink work. And in that slowing down, I'm like, I am tired, I'm exhausted. I'm holding space for other people to get rest and really connect, and am I as connected as I feel like I shouldn't be. And that sort of pushed me into the direction of saying, maybe it's time for me to look at work that is a little bit more regenerative as well. And from there back in October 2021, I took the step away from higher education to lean into this work full time. And that really just created the space for me. I know, I'm a space holder. I know, I'm, you know, before I had language for a lot of this, you know, I would always say like my job is really to help change makers do the things that they do. And when I realized that the practices that we hold, meditation, yoga, fill in the blank with any of these practices from various wisdom traditions, that they're really about creating personal transformation, right, transforming the person so that they can move out and transform the world. And that gave me the courage to sort of lean into that, because I'm like, This is what I do. I don't have to do this in the four world walls of a college, I can do this with the work that I'm doing here. And so that create a space for me to lean into that in a much more intentional way. And that sort of takes me up to where I am now, leaning into providing those sorts of opportunities for folks to do that reflection to create that mirror for folks to really start to see themselves in a more intentional way.
Anjali Rao 10:25
Yeah, it's interesting, you brought up Siddhartha, because that is one of my favorite books, and about from Herman SE. And it's interesting, because in that he does he actually talk, he actually addresses liminality, because so that is actually a contemporary of the Buddha, and he is exploring, he's like, figuring out, is this my thing? Or is this my thing? And so that exploration of different parts, is liminality in so many ways. So I'm so glad you brought that up. And let's, let's go back to that, let's go back to, you know, what you said about the connective tissue between what you were doing and so called spiritual practices, because I think there's always a gap in people's minds like, what is the connection? What is the connection between spiritual work and social change? You know, and I, you address that more, but where does liminality come into this?
Shawn Moore 11:29
Yeah, what I would say to that is, I think that our practices create holding spaces for us to connect deeper to the work that we're doing the social change work, right, that, you know, when I think about, and I'll say this, this is something that I set with, when during the pandemic, when, you know, there was so much happening around the racial reckoning that was happening in the country, the lives being lost, and folks on the frontlines protesting, you know, I had a real interesting moment with myself where I was like, What can I do, like I felt totally helpless, I felt, I think helpless is the best way to sort of phrase that I felt helpless, I'm like, because that's not my thing, right. But also realizing that in laboratory work, or in movement work, we all have different roles to play. And it was one of the ways in which I realized that my role is to help recharge the folks that are out there, right. And I think that that becomes really important that when we're on the front lines, or when we're connecting, or when we're seeking change in the world, that are we creating spaces that are particular for folks on the front line, to come back, to recharge, to pour back into themselves, to reflect on the work that they're doing, to notice whether the work is moving in the direction in which they see. And I think sometimes that's the piece that's missing. And I know a lot of folks who are in the activist space or our movement work that don't always take the time to slow down, right, or they burn themselves out. And they sort of lose themselves in the process. And so for me, I was like, the best thing I can do is create those spaces. So you know, I was offering particular classes free for folks that were, you know, out there doing the work and providing those sort of containers for folks to connect in that way. And so for me, I feel like it's really important for us to one if you're a space holder to create those spaces, if that's in your always joke and say if that's in your ministry, right, like if that's in what you do, create those spaces and containers and ensure that they are safe for folks that are in that work. But then also, if you are on the frontlines, and that's how you show up in the work. Are you taking time to reconnect with yourself? Are you taking time to sort of turn back inward, reconnect to refuel, right, in a way in which you can approach the work more fully, the next time you step out in whatever capacity? I'm
Anjali Rao 13:57
just taking a moment to take it in because I am like nodding my head very vigorously at what you're saying, because this is the work that I personally feel called to do and to really hold space for frontline activists and movement. People in the movements in various various movements. So I so appreciate what you do. And I'm so glad we're having this conversation. What would you think, in the dominant culture? What are some of the obstacles a dominant culture sort of puts in front of folks when in spaces or when in transitory phases? Because right now, we people want to know, what is it that I can do? And they want to know, but there is so many things that we don't know, you know, and I think in my personal work, I always talk about how it is okay to not know and to be in that space of ambiguity and to really, you know, introspect and self reflect and all of that. What is your opinion? Where do you think? How can people show up in the not knowing?
Shawn Moore 15:12
Yeah, one of the things I'll say is when we think about what dominant culture does is it it puts a premium on immediacy. Right? It puts a premium on immediacy when we think about, and I say this as someone who actively participates on social media and loves to participate, I love memes, I love funny stuff, all of that great things. And I love the connective ability that social media provides for us, right? There's a lot of good that has that social media can can provide for us, right, if we're utilizing it with the right intention. But when we sort of flip the script on that we also realize that social media only shows us the end product, right? And if we thought we think about liminal spaces, and we think about liminality, right, we're moving from what something was to what something can become. And with social media, we only typically see what it became right? We don't get we don't necessarily see that gray area in the middle. And so sometimes I think that social media, because of its importance can close out the importance of what that middle space is, we think that we need to already arrive at the answers, when in reality, there's a lot of introspective work that needs to happen before we get to whatever the outcome is. And I think that if we sort of understand that what we're seeing online, is quite often the finished product, right? And understanding there was a lot of steps for us to get there. We can't circumvent the process, we have to sort of lean into the process and always like to say leaning into the discomfort, you know, as you mentioned, like our liminal spaces are, are filled with ambiguity. And when I think about liminal spaces, they're the way that we arrive to change, right. And when we think about movement workers, and folks that are sort of on the front lines, their goal is to see change happen in the world. But before we get to that change in that outcome, we have to sort of sit with the emotions that come up around that, with the not knowing that comes up around that with the humility that comes out of that space. And also the grief that comes from that right, because there's also a grieving period in liminal spaces where something ended. And I love that language, in Buddhist philosophy when they talk about the Bardo, right. And in the Bardo, we look at that as something dies for something to be reborn, right. And that's another way for us to look at the liminal space, right that something has to end before something new can begin. And sometimes we just want the new thing to begin. But we have to understand that something ends first. And really sitting with that and being okay with a way of life might end, a way of being might end, a way of existing in the world as system might end that we might benefit from. But at the end of the day, if something new comes out of that, and that is for the betterment of everyone, that's something we have to sit with, right. And so for me, I think about that, that dominant culture sometimes just lets us arrive too quickly at the end goal, or what we think it should be, without really honoring the process of getting there that that middle ground, that space of discomfort, but in that, in reality, there's a lot of power and possibility that's available to us.
Anjali Rao 18:26
Mm hmm. I love that. And I really want to go back to what you mentioned about the grief that comes with with being in the liminal space, because that is not addressed enough, or it's not given as much importance the the people always, you know, we all of us, including myself, we want to see, like I said, change immediately, like your we want to see conversations happening about some really complex issues, like immediately and all react to what is happening in the news cycle, like immediately. And if you don't do that, for whatever reason, then your judge store, like maybe they're not responding enough, maybe no not doing a certain way. And for folks who are leaning into pausing and really digesting and metabolizing I think it is important and these practices of introspection can add the space holding with the sensitivity to the movements, I think is really key and the work that work that is needed is like I said different for different folks. How would you how would you leverage your practice? And I know I know the answer to that for my personal way, but how can we as teachers a space holders shape, an experience so we can get more comfortable with discomfort?
Shawn Moore 19:59
Yeah, that's that It's a beautiful question. And what I would say to that is, and this has been something that I've sort of integrated in my teachings a lot more, it's just a reminder that our practice little two things, one, that our practices are a microcosm of how we show up in the world, right. And I know we hear that quite often, like a yoga, like what you do on your mat is sort of how you show up in the world, right? In meditation, the things that come up for you on your, in your mat, or when you're a cushion, or wherever you're sitting, or wherever you're experiencing the practice, is a reflection of how it shows up for you in the world. And so reminding people of that, right, that if you notice, there's a lot of anxious energy in your practice, or sitting in silence is uncomfortable for you in meditation, ask yourself those questions like, Is that uncomfortable? For me, when I get off my cushion? Am I able to sit with that? Do I deal with change really well, in that sort of way off of my mat, because quite often, it's a reflection, right. And so reminding people that it is, it is a nice way for us to look at that. And if we can start to manage it in a 510 1520 minute meditation practice, something that we're doing on a daily basis, or in a, you know, a 60 minute yoga class or whatever that looks like, and we can start to work on it in those spaces, then it's almost like we're building the muscle to work with that in other places. And so for me, it's always thinking I and I, for me, it's something that I think about for myself, right? When I come to my practice, I know instances where I feel like my attention has spread too thin, because I'm having a difficulty in focusing on the practice at hand, or itching and reaching for my phone. So then I started to ask myself, like, what's going on with my attention? On a larger scale? Am I split to many different directions? Is it hard for me to sort of just be present with myself? And if I start to ask myself those questions, typically, I'm able to find a space to work with that in a much more gentle way. And then that's probably the that sort of moves into my second point, is like being gentle with ourselves in the process. I think too often we are our practices become another space in which we inflict harm on ourselves. And I always think about like the Ahimsa right, like non harming, like, we do that to ourselves and practices, even for something as simple as like, Hey, I'm doing a yoga, I'm in a yoga class, and I'm going to, you know, injure myself and overextend. Because I don't want to use a block. And I'm not taking help, right? Well, do you not take help in life, right, like in other places, does that reflect other spaces. And so really being gentle with ourselves in our practice, as an exercise to be gentle with ourselves in other places, you know, as we sort of move in that way?
Anjali Rao 22:47
Oh, I love that. And I want to reiterate what you said, our practice on the mat is a microcosm of how could be a reflection of how we move off the mat and to draw the connection as teachers as placeholders. And even as practitioners, even if we pay attention to how we are on our mat or our cushion, and then join those dots. And to see how we are moving in our relationships. What we're actually doing is, I'm sure you will have, you know, something to add to this is we are understanding our samskaras our neuro muscular thought habit body patterns and understanding it, unraveling it, maybe strengthening it, or maybe knowing how we can offset some of the samskaras which are not needed in our life. So is that what we are doing? You think?
Shawn Moore 23:42
Absolutely. And what I'll say when we talk about samskaras, or we talk about habits or patterns, again, I think this goes back to I feel like it's the underlying current of our conversation is like, there has to be a patient's there, right? Like, we have to be able to sit with that and realize, like, you're not breaking a pattern or habit in two or three, you know, practices, right? You're not that that's just not how habits, that's not how our brain is wired, right? So being comfortable with the fact that yes, I have awareness that this is something I need to work on, and noticing that that is something that you can address and work towards. Because again, it's it's there is this need sometimes I think it's a great sort of connection back to this idea of what dominant culture sort of inflicts on us but there's a need for immediacy, there's this need for instant gratification and when we feel like well, it's not working or I tried to work on that and it still doesn't feel like it's I'm releasing that or doesn't feel like it's getting any getting any better. Right. It's that you know, it's are we giving it time again, thinking about the liminal space and moving from something that was to what we want it to be or we see it being like, are we giving it time to change to to to release that that pattern to either to your point, strengthen it or release it or surrender to it? There's there's a a lot that happens that we just have to give ourselves space and be gentle with that process. I love that.
Jivana Heyman 25:08
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Anjali Rao 26:08
Also, how do you think we can reimagine not knowing Shawn, because, you know, we are we are asked to know things we are asked to be experts. And we are, you know, that's the that's the glorification that comes from the capitalistic framework. Right? So there is no glamour in not knowing there is no, it's not sexy. You know, so how would we reimagine this? How can we reframe not knowing ambiguity? liminality?
Shawn Moore 26:40
Yeah, there's a few ways. There's a few things that came up immediately when you said that, and one, I would say, refocus the purpose of your work, right? If you don't know something, does it benefit? Like, can we take ego out? And does it benefit you maybe embellishing that you do know? Or does it benefit, like, hey, we need to bring in somebody else? Or, or, Hey, there's space for someone to learn more, or to have or outsource a different sort of response or person or expert in that way? Sometimes we feel like we need to have all the answers and it's okay. And I would say even as somebody that hold space, that was something I had to to work through, right, when someone will come to you after a class and ask particular questions. And clearly they're seeking something it's okay to be like, that's a really good question. I actually don't know. But let me refer you to somebody, let me connect you with somebody where I know somebody that might be able to help you pull on that thread a little bit more intentionally, or to move down that journey a little bit more. But then I also look at that as an opportunity for possibility right? Again, when we think about liminal spaces. Yes, there's ambiguity, yes, there's discomfort. But there's also possibility if we look at that gap, as an opportunity was like, hmm, I can learn something new here. Like, I might not have this answer right now. But give me a second, let me learn something new. And I like to share the story because this is actually how I always joke and we know it's all yoga, right? It's all it's all connected. But we joke and say, like, I came into yoga backwards, right? That sort of my first entry point was really around meditation. And I really had no interest in becoming like a full yoga teacher. Like, I'm like, there's some amazing yoga teachers out there, they got it. They're doing, they're doing the work out there, I have no, I want to help people meditate. And then sound became another modality. But there was one instance that I encountered where I was facilitating a sound bath, and there was a person of an older age that joined the sound bath. And mind you, I'm just facilitating sound and a lot of a lot of sound bath practices, there aren't or trainings and apprenticeship, there's not a lot of detail that goes into like, how to work with the physical body. So that was a limitation for me very early on. And there was an older woman that came in and she pulled up a chair in the middle of mind, you know, when we think about sound baths, people are like relaxing on the floor, and they got pillows and everything. She pulls up a chair in the middle of the floor. And you know, I'm sitting there, I'm like, Well, let me go speak to her and say, hey, you know, we're on the floor today. And I went to I was like, hey, you know, welcome to the sound bath. And she's like, Thank you, baby. But I'm not getting on this floor. And that was like a real pivotal moment for me, because that was at a point very early on of my facilitation that I didn't have the skill and language to help people in different bodies. And for me, I looked at that as a possibility. I said, Okay, I know the population I want to work with. And I know that they're going to come with particular elements in their body and they will need better direction. everybody's not going to be able to to lay on the floor, right? And so for me, that was that was a very vulnerable moment. And it was a very uncomfortable moment. It was a it was a vulnerable moment, but I looked at that as a moment of possibility. So okay, let me know. I'll look into other ways in which I can better those skills so that now when I have more people in my space that need that assistance, that I'm able to articulate that and so I think looking at those areas as growth points or points of possibility can be really helpful for us. And just getting out of your own way. Because again, you know, ego will creep in, and you'll be like, Oh, I feel like I should have all the answers, but it's okay. It's okay. It's
Anjali Rao 30:28
okay. I love that I love I love what you said about reimagining, not knowing as leaning into possibilities, and potential for new beginnings and growth. So thank you for sharing that. What are some of your non negotiables? I like to ask this for all my guests? What are some of your non negotiables? Or if you want to call it rituals, you want to call it practices for building capacity for being in the space of either not knowing or holding space for liminality?
Shawn Moore 31:04
Yeah. I would say if you asked me this question, maybe a year ago, I would probably have given you a different answer. But in the last year, silence has been that, for me. I feel like the world is so busy, the world is so loud, it's easy for us to be tapped into so many other things. And I'm the kind of person I'm like moving from I wake up in the morning, and the news is on and I get in the car and listen to music, I go to the gym, there's a podcast on logging on to zoom meetings, like there's always a narrative going, there's always a soundscape going, that for me, the way in which I work with that innate discomfort of a liminal space is really sitting with silence, right? Like not feeling that anything else is needed. But just to come down, come and sit, just to be present with yourself without any other. Because I mean, our minds are busy as it is, right? There's a lot of other things going on up there. So do I need anything else to sort of add to that, and so silence even for my own personal practice, as somebody that has bounced between a lot of different experiences, a lot of different types and lineages of meditation practices, like I think the the go, my go to has really been just sitting in silence and just like I'm setting a timer, I'm just going to sit and I'm just going to be present, whether I get antsy and I start looking at the phone, or I move around, I take note of all of that, but just sitting in silence, and just really being present with myself taking note of like what's happening, like, you know, my body, I'm actually tired today, or I feel pretty energetic, what things do I need to work on or creating space, even for creative ideas to sort of surface right, there's a lot of opportunities, I would say, in the last last year or so that like I've had space for things to come and rise to the surface, that I'm like, oh, that's been something I've been sort of sitting with or gestating for a little bit of time. And now I've had some space for it to move to the surface. And there's something there for me to, there's a thread there for me to pull on and sort of explore a little bit more intentionally. So I would say silence has really been the the big thing for me, a way for me to really make that connection. And I think the other piece for me, and it's also, you know, I mentioned this, like I'm a nerd, but like I like to learn and so creating spaces to learn, like, you know, in that silence, maybe before after finding a particular book, and really taking time to trace back to like the roots of these practices, right, like, and for me, that's really important to sort of honor and really keep at the forefront that like, Yes, I see a book written by this person. And it's probably the academic me as well, where I'm like, let me look at your your work cited or your resources. And like what original text of this come from that. Let me go grab that book, and then pull from that and read and make my own interpretations and explore and embrace it in that way. And so part of that is also really beneficial for me as well in that way.
Anjali Rao 33:58
Hmm, that's very juicy. And I and I am a big book nerd too. So I think we will have more to chat. Thank you. And I you know, for those who are uncomfortable with silence, because you know, silence ism is a thing that is very hard for many, many people to come to what are some of the beginning practices do you think for us to even sit with silence is is the next step actually, like you said, because if you were to look at the eight lens, you know, the rest of the stuff comes person being silenced as to what the latter part of off the eight limbs. So what what do you think are some of the things that we can do to arrive there?
Shawn Moore 34:42
Yeah, I think and this is something I say in classes that I teach us. Sometimes we need to build like Silent stamina. And that means like building up our ability to get like, my suggestion is never like hey, just take out of your day and sit in silence. that I'm sure for a lot of folks will be terrified. For me that's juicy. I'm like, Yeah, I work with silence. That's great. But for a lot of folks, I know that that can be terrifying. So like, maybe you do a guided meditation practice, or you float through yoga asana for 3045 minutes, and then create space, maybe there's a pocket of five minutes of silence or in between your meetings between the Zoom call, take five minutes, 10 minutes and let that time slowly increase to give yourself more comfortability with that, but building it around other habits, I think is also is really important. It's really helpful. But starting out small, and then allowing yourself to build that up can be really beneficial, right. And I know that there's times where I definitely backslide where I'm like, Ooh, 10 minutes I can do, let me just do today, I got two minutes to just sort of sit in that and be present in that way. And so giving ourselves grace to also know that our connection to our practices and our connection to those pockets of silence that we connect to, will look different day to day, and that's okay. Right? We sometimes want to keep everything at this particular standard, like every day, I practice for 30 minutes, and it's like, well, paper, that's cool, that sounds good. But our capacity changes day to day. And that's something that when we think about liminal spaces and liminality and change, right? That that's something that we can, like we are we are a different person, minute to minute, day to day, month to month, and our needs change in that sort of change as well. And so being open and comfortable with that can be helpful.
Anjali Rao 36:31
One, wonderful, thank you so much. I'm sure our listeners will really appreciate all these pointers. And before we close anything else, Shawn, that we can, you know, uplift your work and think you want to share with our listeners, anything exciting in your upcoming projects.
Shawn Moore 36:49
Oh, yeah. But the only thing else I'll say is, you know, there are some great workshops that are coming down the line, I'm actually leaning into this idea of liminality and change a little bit more, and there'll be a series coming out, that'll help us sort of work through that more intentionally. So I'll always tell folks is like just hop on the mailing list, I send some stuff out, I send some free practices out and all of those kinds of things. But for me, this is the work that I feel like it's really important at the moment, I feel like at where we are from a social perspective, we have to become much more comfortable that I think the world is asking for a level of change right now. And what that means is we need to be more responsive, but in our responsiveness, we have to be comfortable with that discomfort. And so finding ways to help people no matter what sector they're in, no matter you know, whether you're, you know, holding space for other people, whether you're on the front lines, whether you're you know working in a company that finding spaces to help people really settle in, to connect to that power that's present in these liminal spaces, so that they can go out and make the changes that they see that are needed in the world. And so yeah, there'll be some great offerings coming out around that very soon.
Anjali Rao 38:02
Very exciting. And I will definitely look out for those offerings as well. And so much gratitude to you, Shawn, for coming on this podcast and sharing so much wisdom. And very practical, I would like to say practical wisdom. So I so appreciate your work and your words. And I cannot wait to continue to learn from you and listen to whatever you have to share.
Shawn Moore 38:28
And the feeling is mutual. I'm like yeah, we're just this, this is a great conversation. And yeah, we gotta we gotta definitely keep this this open. Because I'm definitely excited to learn more from you. And I'm just excited for what you've been able to do with this podcast and the work that you do. Yeah. Thank you.
Anjali Rao 38:48
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you listeners for listening to this conversation with Sean Moore.
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