Jivana Heyman 09:49:08
Hi everyone, its Jivana I just want to come on for a moment and thank our sponsor offering tree. They're an all in one easy to use community back business that saves you time, energy and money as a Yoga teacher. Offering tree allows you to create a website in less than 30 minutes. Plus you get a discount to accessible Yoga. Just go to offeringtree.com/accessibleyoga to get your discount today. Okay, here's our episode.
Anjali Rao 09:49:39
Welcome to the love of Yoga podcast. I'm your host, Anjali Rao. This podcast explores the teachings of Yoga for self and collective transformation. We dive into how spirituality and philosophy can ignite social change. I share conversations with folks who are on the front lines of justice and liberatory movements, thought leaders, change makers and healers.
Hello, everyone, welcome to the love of Yoga podcast. I'm your host Anjali Rao. And I'm wishing everybody a very happy and joyful moments in 2024. I wanted to start this year with this particular conversation as a guide map for the year ahead. And before the guest and I will go I will be introducing shortly came on we were just talking about how the past few months may have ignited some sort of inquiry about how we can show up in the world right now for collective care. So I'm so excited to have with us Deepa Iyer somebody whose work I often refer to in in the world in when I talk about the intersection of Yoga and social change. Deepa Iyer is a South Asian American writer, strategist and lawyer. Her work is rooted in Asian American, South Asian, Muslim and Arab communities, where she spent 15 years in policy advocacy and coalition building in the wake of the September 11 attacks and ensuing backlash. Currently, the band aids project on solidarity and social movements at the building movement project, a national nonprofit, she has written two books, we do single America, and social change now a guide for reflection and connection. A first children's book, picture book we are the builders will be released in the fall of 2024. I so love that Deepa that you're writing a children's book, I would love love to share this with all my nieces and nephews and just be just children in my life. And welcome so very much to the podcast. Like I said, Deepa, I often refer to your work, the social change ecosystem in my offerings about the intersection of Yoga and social change. So a very warm welcome again,
Deepa Iyer 09:52:24
Thank you so much for having me. Anjali,
Anjali Rao 09:52:27
Deepa, Can you share more about your background and how you came to this? And what were the catalysts for your own process and your own path?
Deepa Iyer 09:52:36
Sure. As one gets older, it seems like there's more to say. So I'll try to to limit it. I think that my work on issues surrounding justice, and equality really stemmed from a couple of different experiences. One, like many immigrants, or the experiences I had when I moved to the United States with my family when I was 12, from Kerala, India, to Louisville, Kentucky. So as you can imagine, that was a bit of a culture shock on many levels. And the experiences that my family and I had there while I was growing up, were really ones where it was very clear that we didn't belong. And it was unclear where we belonged. And growing up in the South and the mid 1980s, where the ideas of race are, were very different from how we talk about them today. But those experiences really motivated me to get involved in different sorts of campaigns throughout college and law school. And I would say the second sort of big watershed moment for me was the horrific September 11 attacks, and the backlash that followed that affected South Asian Muslim Arab Sikh communities. And that really motivated me to think about how to get more involved in our own communities and I helped to, to start and then work in an organization that focused on national civil rights issues facing South Asians. And I think that, you know, through the course of the journey that I've had both personally, you know, really coming to terms with the very, you know, the many privileges that that I'm fortunate to hold, but also that are difficult to manage at times. being somebody who is, you know, who comes from an upper caste Hindu family, and understanding what caste privilege is like, is a journey that I've been on. And also understanding how that shows up in the work that we need to do right now. Especially when it comes to folks in the Indian American community around addressing caste and also Hindutva. Plus also the the ways in which we need to build across other movements, not just on our own. So the importance of transformative solidarity practice, and recognizing that we each have a role to play in doing that work. So those are just some of the the types of experiences and moments that have sparked and I think shaped the work that I do now.
Anjali Rao 09:55:36
Well, thank you for sharing that. And like I said, you know, the watershed moments are some of the, I think, turning points and many of many lives, and especially the ones the big ones, like which happens in the news, but also the smaller ones that we face personally. And then we are like, Okay, we have to do something about it, and how can I show up? And how can I probably leverage who I am and my my identities of privilege that afforded me privilege. So for those of us and those listeners who have been witnessing what's going on in Palestine, Sudan, Congo, and generally the in the diaspora here in the United States, they may be also feeling a lot of overwhelm, there is so much work to do in terms of climate justice, reproductive justice. Now, the upcoming elections, I mean, it just feels like a lot. So I wanted to have this particular conversation as a sort of the first one in 2024, for people as a like a guide map, and you talk about your social change ecosystem a lot. Could you please share for the listeners who are new to your work? Like an introduction to it, and how that can probably help reduce overwhelm? Yeah,
Deepa Iyer 09:56:53
well, first, I just want to validate what you're saying, because I think that there's no shortage of issues that require and command and demand our attention. You know, I think that we are living at a time of overlapping crises that are connected to one another, and not just in the United States, but around the world that affect us. And I think that we have gotten to a point as a collective, where many of us know that we can't delegate that work to someone else, we can't deny or dismiss what is happening around us. And the importance of wanting to step in feeling overwhelmed at the same time. And often being unclear about where we can be most of service is an experience that I still go through almost on a weekly basis. And I think it's very natural to go through that. So the framework that I developed in a way, honestly, was an answer to a time when I felt that tremendous sense of overwhelm back in 2017, about a year into the Trump administration. So the framework is a pretty simple offering. But I think that if you work with it, you could reach a lot of insights about yourself, and also about the ecosystems that you are part of. So the social change ecosystem framework has three components. It invites us to number one, think really hard about our core values, what is important to us, and not just the words, because I think we're all used to concepts like liberation and solidarity, but to really break them down and to say, Well, what what happens in the world when there is solidarity, and how do I practice solidarity, right? So really kind of getting deeper in alignment with what those values are. And then the second step of the framework is an invitation to identify the roles that we often play or are being called upon to play or even aspire to play. And the framework reflects back 10 roles that we often see in social change movements. These aren't job titles, they're roles of how we show up. But they're really embedded in our skills and our lived experiences. So the roles are ones like playing the role of a weaver to make connections between issues or communities, or the role of the healer, to look at how oppression lines itself through our bodies, our communities, and our systems. So identifying the roles that make most sense for one as a person. But also, the third step is what does our ecosystem need of us. And an ecosystem is really any space, that a group of people are coming together, and they have shared values and goals. So it could be a workplace or an organization, a collective, an online community, a rapid response, associate organization, right? It can be anything, really. But the question really is like, how do we use our roles in service to that ecosystem to strengthen it, so that we can reach our goals in a more effective and sustainable manner. And the last thing, I'll say, and I'm sure we'll delve into it more is that the framework is multi dimensional, which means that you can use it as an individual, or you can use it as an organization, or even a network a movement. So you can really look at it in lots of different ways as well. Wonderful,
Anjali Rao 10:00:39
I love that. And I'm going to share the ecosystem that you have provided, even in our show notes, so people can take a look at it as a visual. In terms of in terms of your own vision for the world right now. I mean, it's a big question. I know, what how is there one, do you go with like, a particular thing of this is how I would love for it to be? And this is my role and relationship to that vision? And if so, what is that vision? Like?
Deepa Iyer 10:01:14
That's a very big question. Yeah, I mean, I can only answer it from my own point of entry. That is, as someone who supports different social movements. And so for me, the vision is really strong, and sustainable and effective, rigorous movements that are able to make a dent in the structures and systems and institutions around us, that often lead to inequality and injustice and oppression. And so that's really my vision of robust ecosystems that involve a lot of different people. And that really are focused on how do we how do we, you know, how do we come together? How do we grow together? How do we deal with conflict, which is inevitable in a generative way? How do we stay nimble? Right, so how do we make sure that our movements, our points of entry for people, regardless of whether or not they have the purest analysis, or, you know, the clearest vision, right? How do we keep open. So those sorts of those sorts of elements are part of sort of my bigger vision for movements, which then I think can really make an impact on society at large.
Anjali Rao 10:02:43
Hmm, I love that. I love what you said about how, how do we stay nimble? And how do we allow and be an invitation for people to join us and, you know, it has to be somewhat of a dance between where the other person is and where the movement is, and where we are. And then that sort of builds that connection. Otherwise, it just feels too intimidating, perhaps, for people to join a movement or, or a cause. And in that, I wanted to ask you, you speak with so many people from all all walks of life and all backgrounds, all lived experiences? What are some of the biggest misconceptions about justice work, that you think generally people have who haven't yet joined anything? And we're just, you know, I'm just, I'm just a witness, and I'm just watching this from from afar kind of a thing?
Deepa Iyer 10:03:39
That's a great question. Um, I think one of the roadblocks that I often hear is, I don't have anything to offer. And I think that this framework, sometimes I've seen people use it and say, oh, you know, I didn't realize that being a caregiver in an ecosystem is valuable or a seen as valued, right. And I do have some of those skills like I'm a patient listener, and I I can sense and Intuit what people might need. And I can offer them that comfort. Right. So I think one of the roadblocks often is like, I don't have anything to offer. And another one is this sense that it's, it's so big, right? So I don't know how to how to enter, and where to enter. Yeah. So, again, I think that it's about really thinking about the ecosystems around that around us, right? Are there existing organizations or collectives that we might want to join? And if not, is there a way for us to create something with others? Right? Is there a way in which the current networks or associations that we're part of, could be influenced to take on a particular issue or make a statement about something happening in the world? And then I think the, the other one I'd mentioned as a roadblock is often folks feel like they, they say, Oh, I don't know enough, or I'm or things are complicated. And I think part of that is like doing, you know, our own work to learn. You know, even, you know, we in the Prop, we're talking about what's happening in Palestine in Israel. And yes, of course, it's complicated, right? We're not talking about a situation that began on October seventh, we're talking about decades of historical context. And at the same time, there are many books, many visionaries, many storytellers, many guides, using some of the roles and the framework that exist that we can turn to to learn. And I also think the movement has to be more open. In terms of not requiring sort of an entry pass, you know, from folks, we can't assume that people have this sort of movement purity when it comes to their analysis, because we're all learning, right? We can't be like, Oh, yes, I understand everything at this 100% level. Even over the course of the last 20 years of racial justice work, what we now say, in parlance, because of the movement for Black lives, we weren't saying necessarily in like the 1980s, or the 90s. Right. So we've learned as movements have developed and taken shape in front of our eyes, what the vocabulary is, what the analysis is, what the language is. And so I think it's it's both our own responsibility to learn. And also I think that movements have to be open to accepting people and meeting them where they're at, instead of dismissing people or sort of dispensing of a whole group of people who might not, quote, get it fully yet.
Anjali Rao 10:07:10
Hmm. Yeah, that's really, really helpful. And also, do you think there is a, there is a likelihood of the punitive sort of culture that that seeps through in social justice work, right. And so you know, the canceled culture or whatever that people talk about, like, if you don't do do it in a certain way, if you don't say it in a certain way, or if you make mistakes. And then then it's, of course, we have one has to be accountable for harm that has been committed. But also there is a greater sort of sense of shame that is attributed to people who make mistakes. And I think that also keeps people away. Like, I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to do the wrong thing. I don't want to, quote unquote, offend people. And so people just don't want to get involved. What do you say to people like that? And for in situations like that? Yeah,
Deepa Iyer 10:08:07
I think that's very real. You know, I've heard people say exactly the words that you just said. And I do think that it's incumbent upon those of us who are part of social movements, to really think about the culture that we're setting in terms of meeting people where they're at, you know, if you're working on social justice, it's very likely that every single one of us has made mistakes. I make mistakes on a daily basis, and I learn from them, right. And so we should actually have a culture of acceptance of people in terms of their experiences, their backgrounds, what they know and don't know. And so that's one of the ways in which in the framework, there's this role of the guide. And I think that's a really important role. Where if we saw movements as guides, to support people in their learning, and to create an environment where it's acceptable to make a mistake. gets us it's acceptable to say, I don't know, or seed information, right? Or I have thought about this. And I'm not really sure if it's going to land. But I want to just say what I've been thinking, right? Rather than sort of this judgment of, well, you didn't, you didn't get that, right. And so, you know, you can't, you can't play with us anymore, or we're going to, you know, we're going to judge whether or not you have all your bone a few days in line. I think that that just, again, causes folks to not want to get involved. And then it's, I think, to the detriment of social movements, because we need, you know, a whole swath of people from different backgrounds and experiences to come along with us, because we're facing so much, you know, we're facing so many attacks on so many levels. Hi,
Jivana Heyman 10:10:06
everyone, I just want to pop in here really quick, and remind you about our sponsor offering training. As Yoga teachers, we our own business managers, website, designers, and producers, it's a lot. And offering tree offers an all in one platform that makes it easy to succeed while we're doing all the things. And I just like to say that through this partnership with the love of Yoga podcast offering tree has shown that it's committed to supporting accessibility and equity in the Yoga world. Offering tree is a public benefit corporation. And they're driven by a mission of wellness accessibility, which we share with them at accessible Yoga. As an offering tree user, you'll get to join a supportive educational community. And you'll also get free webinars with top experts in wellness and entrepreneurship. And of course, you get a discount. So go to offering tree.com backslash accessible Yoga to learn more, and to get your discount. Okay, let's go back to the episode.
Anjali Rao 10:11:04
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much for highlighting that, in fact, I talk a lot about asking questions is, I think perhaps most important, rather than knowing or thinking, you know, the answers, you know, so asking questions is really, really important. And saying, I don't know, like being humble enough to say that, I don't know about something. What would be your I want to say like a hot take on on the on the community, the collective that we are, where is where are we at as a culture, like the dominant culture? And we are, you know, of course, in terms of our own positionality? We are we are sharing this, but where do you think we are in in the world that we live in right now? Like, are we are we such a question? It is? It is, but I really think that I feel like, depending upon who you talk to, you get different answers. Because, because there are some people who are like this is this is, and that's true that this is probably one of those moments. And when I say one, I've seen the past few months, where many people are getting activated, and really open eyes are being open to where we are in the government and our own complicit nature in what's happening in the world. Right. So in that sense, there has been an awakening. And then there are yet other people who are completely gaslighting, what's going on? So we're just in that sense, you know, to give you more context for the question, where are we in the world? And when I say the world, of course, I want to be more specific in the United States, because let's be specific about where we are. Yeah,
Deepa Iyer 10:12:47
I mean, I think that I think that we're at a crossroads. And we're at a crossroads just as societies as humanity. And it's been, and I think that a lot of people share this, you know, especially in the last couple of months, there's been an awakening in many ways, right? We are awakened to understanding, you know, who's going to actually talk about solidarity with Palestinians. We're awakening ourselves to understanding that there are institutions that are creating a chilling effect in terms of expressing solidarity with Palestinians, right. So I think we're getting a much better sense of sort of the the red lines that people will cross or won't cross and to me that has been really devastating to watch. Because it really should not be difficult for anyone to call what is happening in Palestine a genocide, it should not be difficult to understand how the United States is complicit in that genocide. There are these are facts and there is historical context and everyday we we can understand this information analyze it. So I think that we are at a crossroads as individuals and collectives in this moment to figure out how we're going to approach what is happening around us. And I think a lot about this, this phrase that or when that the Roy, who I think is a visionary and a guide. Yeah, in an essay that she wrote, when the pandemic started back in 2020, where she called where she said, the pandemic is a portal. And, you know, what she went on to say in that essay is that, you know, this is a time for us to choose how we move through that portal, right? Are we going to stand at the threshold and not move through it? Are we going to move through it with a lot of baggage with our, you know, with our viewpoints and perspectives that might be very siloed? and narrow? Or are we going to move through it with a lighter with a lighter, lighter baggage or and recognizing, you know, who we want to move through it with? Right, who are the people, the partnerships, the ecosystems that we're moving through that portal with? And what are we building on the other side of that portal? Obviously, like she says that all of that in the most eloquent ways, not in what I just said. But I think that I often go back to that essay a lot. Because it reminds me of the urgency of the moment. Yeah. And it also gives me a sense of recognizing that it is a portal, it is a threshold. And it enables me to think about, Well, how am I moving through that? Now? And with whom? And in what way, right? And with what, what values? And with what goals? And how am I? How am I supporting what we're building as we move through it? Because we can't, there's no like magic door that opens up on the other side, and voila, right, like, we have to create that. And so what does that look like as well? So I think that it is it is a an, it's a moment, it's an opportunity, it's a crossroads, and it's a portal. And I do think that we have the analysis ideas, networks, privileges, information to move through it. And it's important to kind of be prepared to take those steps.
Anjali Rao 10:16:34
Wonderful. I mean, any anytime Arundhati Roy is mentioned in a podcast organization or any conversation, my face will light up, because she's been such an inspiration. And our words are just magic and Bom, Bom to me. So thank you for sharing that. And perhaps this is a good another big question. The since you're in the mood, what does liberation mean to you?
Deepa Iyer 10:17:03
It means a lot of different things. I think, you know, I think on a personal level, it's about the capacity of people to make decisions about how they live their lives, about their bodies, about their partnerships, about the ways in which they connect with their neighbors, and friends and families and all of that, right. It's about the the ability to, to have some ownership in terms of making the decisions that work for ourselves and others that we're connected to. I also think about it from the sense of like a more collective ethos and what liberation looks like from the standpoint of our, our communities. And, you know, again, I really go back a lot to some of the the wisdom of, of people that we have been so fortunate to learn from, you know, the liberation includes some of what Audre Lorde has taught us about the tools that we use to, to make the changes right in the, quote, Masters House, about the importance of self care as a revolutionary act. That's part of liberation, I think about bell hooks and how she taught us about the value of love, and how it shows up in different ways. And also that that is a cornerstone of what she called communities of resistance where we know we're not alone. And I think about Grace Lee Boggs and how she wrote about me, she would have this question, like, what time is it on the clock of the world whenever she held the community meeting at her home? And, you know, the time on the clock of the world is now right. Yes, yes. And, and she also wrote a lot about how it's not about like the quantity of the connections that we have, right, but it's about the quality have the connections that we have the critical connections between us. So I think all of that is part of liberation, both as an individual, but then also as a collective. Beautiful,
Anjali Rao 10:19:20
beautiful. And speaking of self care as a radical act, what are some of your practices for care, especially during turbulent times that we are living right now? What do you do? How do you manage to stay sane and stay? Well?
Deepa Iyer 10:19:39
You know, I think like everyone else, I struggle with it. And it's, it's also a muscle and a practice that we have to build. I think that in movement spaces, there is this kind of hustle culture. It's also often sometimes the sense of martyrdom, there's a sense of kind of doing, doing everything all the time, because of the urgency of the moment, which is real, right. Yeah, yeah. So I think that that it's tough to then center care. I think it's also important to recognize that, you know, when you're talking about doing this work, it's not just about self care, but it has to be about a culture of community care, since so, reaching out to others. asking for support is really important, because we can't always just do it on our own. And so. So I guess I would say, for me, some of the practices include really taking time to, to check out and give my give myself permission to do that, whether that's for an hour a day to go on a walk, or whether it is, you know, a week of kind of managing and setting some boundaries on time. I also I, I am lucky enough to be the mother to a 13 year old boy. And so that automatically
Unknown Speaker 10:21:13
makes it burial. Yeah, yeah, the time
Deepa Iyer 10:21:16
boundaries are super real, you know, there are school pickups, and yeah, being a chauffeur to one's child, and yeah, wanting to be present, with special moments and things like that. And so being with my son can be a really important way of, for me to kind of recenter myself and to see myself in, like multiple identities, and not just like someone who's working on a cause, right? Yeah. And then I also I do a lot of writing, and that, to me, whether it's journaling or personal essay, writing or taking a writing workshop, to me writing is, is probably the most fundamental way of caring for myself, because it allows me to be in a conversation with myself. And I think, at least for me, that is very important. I think it like everyone has a different method, right? And I think I have learned to ask myself, what do you need right now? Yeah, like, do you need to like sit with a journal? Do you need to write to go on a walk? Do you wouldn't need to talk to a friend. And so. So asking that and recognizing that it looks different for everyone. And that's okay, as well.
Anjali Rao 10:22:35
Absolutely, absolutely. Wonderful. This is so helpful. And I'm nodding very rigorously at what you're saying. Because a lot of it is very reflected in so much of even how I sometimes feel like I think children especially are some of the great Levellers. They make it very real. So I appreciate you sharing and being real. And all the gifts that you share with with the world are so needed, and I'm really grateful for you to be a part of this podcast conversation, especially, you know, sort of jumpstarting 2024. Anything else deeper before we close the conversation, anything else you want to share for the listeners?
Deepa Iyer 10:23:19
Um, well, I mean, I, I think that I think that it's great for folks who are listening to really think about, you know, what role do I want to play as I move into this year? What ecosystems do I want to support and strengthen, and knowing that we can do it all and recognizing that there are others playing roles right in the ecosystem, so that we can trust that the work will get done? Because we're in relationship to to each other, and there is a level of trust. So I think that those would be some of my final ideas for folks. And of course, more interest in in specifically the social change ecosystem framework. The website where there's a hub of info Mission is WWW dot social change map.com. And there'll be information there on how people can learn more. But also, you know, listen to other ways to utilize that framework in their own work.
Anjali Rao 10:24:25
Thank you so much, that is indeed a real gift to to the community. So I so appreciate you again. And I wish you great joy and rest and reconnection to your family and loved ones during during the break people so, and for the listeners, thank you so much for joining, and very happy new year to each and every one of you. Thank you
Thank you for listening to the love of Yoga podcast, and offering from accessible Yoga Association. Please support our work by becoming an ambassador or by visiting our online studio at accessible yoga.org
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
