Anjali Rao 09:53:11
Welcome to the love of Yoga podcast. I'm your host, Anjali Rao. This podcast explores the teachings of Yoga for self and collective transformation. We dive into how spirituality and philosophy can ignite social change. I share conversations with folks who are on the front lines of justice and liberatory movements, thought leaders, change makers, and healers.
Welcome to the love of Yoga Podcast. Today we have with us a very special guest Sujatha Baliga Sujatha Baliga is work is characterized by an equal dedication to crime survivors and people who have caused harm. A former victim advocate and public defender Bolliger was awarded a Soros justice fellowship in 2008, which used to launch a pre change restorative juvenile diversion program. In our most recent position, as the director of the restorative justice project Sujata helped communities across the nation implement restorative justice alternatives to juvenile detention, and zero tolerance school discipline policies. She's a guest lecturer at universities and a speaker and speaks publicly inside prisons about her own experiences. As a survivor of child sexual abuse, and a path to forgiveness. She is currently working on a first book, angry long enough towards healing and repair for ourselves and the world. Sujata has faith journey undergirds her justice work a long time justice practitioner, she's a lay member of the gyuto Foundation, a Tibetan Buddhist monastery in Richmond, California, where she leads meditation on Monday nights. Before we begin, I just want to share a few things that is Jessica and I are both speakers of company, which is a which is a language that is spoken by a very, very small fraction of the Indian population. So it's really exciting for me to have some data here. And the reason why I wanted to choose this particular topic about anger is a I think most of us who are awake in the world right now are somewhat angry and have rage about what's going on in almost all parts of the world. And I personally heard japa speak on real on Instagram, and I was curious. And I really wanted her to share her perspective on anger with us. And I'm really excited for this conversation with you. Sujata. So a very, very warm welcome to you.
sujatha baliga 09:56:08
Thank you so much for having me. And it's so nice to be invited by a concrete sister to have a conversation. Even if it's an English this time. Maybe maybe in the future, you'll help me improve my company's speaking skills. And then we could do a little chat in company someday.
Anjali Rao 09:56:22
I would love that though. I think maybe like 10 people would understand. So yeah, very warm welcome. Could you please share with the listeners your own path to the work that you're doing today?
sujatha baliga 09:56:37
So thank you for this question. So for me, I spent a lot of time in my younger years in my late teens and early 20s really immersed in issues around gender violence and intimate partner and sexual violence. And from my side, you know, as you alluded to, in the intro, it comes from my own lived experience, right, I was sexually abused in my home by my father. And then I had had a few other experiences during and after college with sexual violence in my own life. And my rage about those experiences really fueled my work. But through a really I was living in Mumbai, in my early 20s. And I was finding myself extremely ineffective in the work I was trying to do around Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence. And and I realized it was because my rage was really destroying me. Like I had constant migraines and stomach problems. And the truth is, I was quite distractible, like my own rage would sort of hijack my thinking and my ability to be present in the moment. I found myself sort of mentally and emotionally elsewhere from what was actually happening most of the time and so on a, you know, a process of trying to find my way out of that kind of suffering and, and just sort of feeling very lost. And also I was on the verge of starting law school I had begun to get Law School acceptance letters, and I didn't think that I was in a good mental state for starting such a rigorous course of study, I went off by myself to the Himalayas to try to find myself and landed in Dharamshala, which is where the Tibetan community in exile lives. And through a wonderful course of events, the friend of the family who encouraged me to write a letter to the Dalai Lama asking him about my own struggles with anger, and particularly about how one works through intra familial sexual violence. And so I wrote the Dalai Lama note, I was too ashamed back then to name the true thing that was added at the root. But I said, anger is killing me. But it motivates my work. How do you work on behalf of abused and oppressed people without anger as the motivating force? Yeah, and my real interested in that was was trying to get at, particularly from him when he himself had lost his own nation, when he himself was like the direct recipient of the harm. He and his people, how did he persevere without being consumed by rage. And so, you know, the response was to have to that letter was that I received an hour long audience with His Holiness when I was 24 years old. Yeah, wild. To this day, I still can't believe that that happened, when I received some really genuine advice from him, which was incredibly balanced, and generous in accepting the amount of rage that I carried towards the injustice in the world, while also helping me find my way out of that level of rage that was sort of destroying both my peace of mind, my body, and my efficacy and my work. And so through that, I felt very grateful for for the guidance of His Holiness. And, and that's sort of what led me on this path to try and to understand what is some what are some other ways and approaches we can take rather than anger, being a flame that burns to its own destruction, in our efforts to heal the harms that happened in the world?
Anjali Rao 10:00:18
That is so powerful and amazing that you actually, at 24 knew that this kind of anger is going to hurt yourself and will not really, you know, be nurturing, and you sought a way out of it. And you actually went in, you got to meet the Dalai Lama 24, I can't even imagine and fathom how that must have been. So transforming transformational, so thank you for sharing that. And what a blessing indeed. What are some of the ways in which you think anger can consume us? And how can we metta belies this anger, righteous anger? Because, you know, most often what happens is that spiritual quote, unquote, religious practices, sometimes can bypass can say, hey, it's really, you know, it's, maybe it's your fault, maybe, you know, so how can we bypass that or ignore it or repress it? Or, you know, blame it on some constellation neuro karma? Whatever, there's so many ways in which we do this. So how can we actually met verbalize it and be present with it? And maybe transcend it? What are some of your best practices, recommendations? learnings?
sujatha baliga 10:01:43
What a beautiful question, actually. So, to my mind, I think the first step is to sit with it. And the way to sit with it really, there's so many different ways that we can think about the experiences that we've had and different ways to hold it, we can hold it with a tight fist, or we can hold it, you know, you know, are the lessons from it, you know, with a tight fist or with an open palm that lets it blow away? Or we can try to dump it, you know, but what does it look like to actually cradle the experience and the anger that comes from it sort of in an open palm, you know, and to really sit with it. And I think, for me, this, this notion of remaining present to the causes of my anger, and the experience of anger itself was a gift that the Dalai Lama gave me when I was really pressing him for like a formula like, How can I forgive? Show me how you did it? I want to do it to you know, His Holiness, instead of giving me a pat answer. He offered me one of the most generous questions I've ever received, which was, he asked Do you feel you've been angry long enough? And so for me for the Dalai Lama to say, Have you been angry login, right. When it was an it was a genuine question. It wasn't a little girl. Are you done with your anger? Now it's time to move on. It was a genuine question. And so I think that's the first thing is to just ask yourself, do you feel you've been angry long enough? Or are you trying to spiritual bypass on yourself? Are you trying to rush past the experience? So first thing is, things keep coming back to tug on our sleeve, or, or whatever, if we don't give it proper attention, have we truly inventoried the impact of the harm. So first thing is, understand what it is you're actually angry about and what it's doing to you. So once we have taken the time necessary to really inventory, the the harms and the impact, and really displayed a lot of self compassion for ourselves and centered our own healing, then I think there are quite a few steps along the way that can be offered. And many of them for me, if someone who practices meditation has have a few different meditative practices that are beneficial in this way of reducing the amount of anger that we feel. The first is that the anger in and of itself is a mental state, right? It has body impacts, but it starts with like thoughts and perceptions and feelings, and then it and then it can, you know have impact on our body. So that mental, that that mind that is always drawn over and over again, to the thing that happened in the past that is causing that rage, or the thing that is ongoing. How we think about it, and how we hold that, in our minds, is really, it's very important to be able to have control over the amount of that. Thinking, right. And so for me, just the basics of like breath, observation, practice, really learning to be able to reign in the mind through observing the breath has been one of the greatest gifts for me. When I sit longer meditation courses, and you get to practice over and over again, the thought arises, come back to the breath that I've been pulled like a bull by the ring in my nose over and over, I'm controlled by the rage, right? My I am not in control of my own mind. Practicing saying not not thinking about them, I'm gonna come back to the sensation of the breath as it comes and goes at its own natural pace. I start to gain mastery over my own mind. And so anger is just a product of mind. And so general mastery of mine beneficial. The next step really is what's actually the first piece of advice. This is just what His Holiness told me right first was written in the mind. The second piece of advice he says is, you know, when you're ready, and this is kind of more advanced practice, start to open your heart to the humanity of the people who cause harm. Oh, and I was not prepared at 24. To hear this advice. I actually thought it was crazy. And I laughed at the Dalai Lama, like no way, no way. But as you know, over the years, I've become more and more capable of this, which is to not have to dehumanize people with with whom I disagree, first of all, but most importantly, not dehumanize people. You know, even not most importantly, but eventually being able to reach a point where you don't dehumanize people who even cause severe harm. This is a gradual, gradual baby steps towards this. But I start with different types of meditation techniques, like just trying to sit with the shared humanity of people that I disagree with or who caused harm. I like this meditation called just like me meditation. And I tried to think of ways in which I share some piece of my humanity with people who I disagree with or cause harm. Just like me, this person wishes to be happy. Just like me, this person doesn't want suffering. Just like me, this person wishes to be peaceful and at ease, right. And so they may be going about it some way that I think is really wrong, but at least it helps me feel a shared humanity with them. And that too, reduces my anger. So those are some some of the, you know, baseline things that can really help. Another is to change the circumstances, right. So just because I stopped fueling my work with rage, for the most part, doesn't mean that I've stopped trying to change the causes and conditions that give rise that give rise to righteous rage, and still working to end child sexual abuse. I'm still working to do so in a way that doesn't increase mass criminalization, because I'm equally angry about child sexual abuse or equally wanting that to not happen, as I am deeply disturbed by our racialized mass criminalization being the response to these harms. Right? And so, spending my life dedicated to up ending the causes and conditions that give rise to these problems, also helps me Yeah, work it into a different direction. Beautiful.
Anjali Rao 10:07:57
Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm listening to you and I agree with you on so many levels and especially, I think finding meaning to something which is so terrible that has happened to one oneself personally, I think has been is a really powerful way to alchemize anything which is considered to be negative and anger is definitely considered to be a destructive emotion if it is not channeled or transformed or understood, you know. So thank you so much for sharing that. What are some of the roadblocks you think for a person who is experiencing anger, rage? To alchemize it what are some of the roadblocks or one experiences along this path?
sujatha baliga 10:08:46
Great question. So I think part of the problem is that we see anger as solely negative. Yeah. So at its root, right, when my favorite word I've been playing with lately is sublimation, which has a particular meaning within Freudian analysis, which I don't agree with. But just think of it more from the like physics perspective, like when a solid turns into a gas. Yeah. Right. And so I really love sublimation as what I'm trying to do with anger. And so what does that do when you Sublimate? You, you transform the form, but not its core essence. And so people like, well, the core essence of anger is bad. No, no, no, the core essence of anger is this desire for there to not be a certain injustice, it is a response to an injustice, it is a response to being rewarded, it is sometimes a very natural reaction to a danger that's coming your way. Why would we want to do away with those things, those things are quite useful. The problem is when it becomes concretize, it becomes a repeat play, or it blocks our prefrontal cortex from giving its most gifted responses to complex problems, when we just stay lost in our you know, lizard brain, you know, all that. fight flight freeze, dissociate a piece, like those are not our most creative responses to complex problems in the world. So, so starting with honoring, honoring, oh, there's an injustice here. And that is what this response, oh, my face is hot, because someone has truly just insulted me on the basis of my race, my gender, my sexual orientation, whatever it is, right? People are, are coming for me on the basis of these things. And that is, it's quite natural and normal and good to have that initial ah, oh, but then from there, so So I think a block sometimes is that we bypass honoring, right? And looking at that, what is the essence in the sublimation that we want to have continue? The essence in the sublimation that we want to have continue in its new form is the work to oppose the injustice, the work to create a safer environment, the work to remove the kinds of dangerous work and oppressions we're talking about? So? So first, is that, and then other blocks, I think, are all the people in your life that have told you to forgive something before you are ready? Yep, oh, you should, you know, all the things that we've talked about previously, right? All the, oh, this is just your karma. Or this is just or if you were more advanced, you know, blah, blah, you wouldn't be angry about this. So I feel like every time somebody pedals forgiveness too soon, you're we're setting people back further under their ability to let anything go. So please stop telling people that it's time for them to forgive. That is an individual journey, and everyone should stop deciding when to forgive. I think those are some of the things that stand in our way. I think for me, too, as a longtime activist prior to even in my 20s. And my identity was really wrapped up in being rager. Girl, you know, I was the one who would call it out. I was one grab the mic at the community meeting and say the thing that needed to be said I was one, you know, and so that was there was identity wrapped. If I'm not angry, who am I? Right? And then I think when we're angry on other people's behalf to if I'm not angry about this horror that's happening to them on my real ally. Yeah, these are so many of assembling likes. And also just Yeah, basic safety feeling like if I stopped being angry, will I lose my capacity to protect myself? If I stopped being angry? Will I stop having the fire I need to, to do the things I need to do in this world? So those are some of our stumbling blocks. But yeah, absolutely need to be they need to be looked at carefully, you know, for all of those reasons, yeah.
Anjali Rao 10:12:50
Yeah. I love that. Thank you. I know you talked a little bit about our inner lives and how it impacts oneself, how does our inner lives impact the collective and the reason I asked this is because so many of the practitioners, Yoga practitioners they feel that their practice is about their own self, oneself but really not, or in a very vague way impacting somebody else. How does our inner life Impact Transform layout in the collective, and vice versa? How does the collective and in fact, the individual, but
sujatha baliga 10:13:31
I'm a huge fan of Indras. Net as a visual, you know, so this notion, you please share that on your shore. So Indras. Net, I mean, the way, the way I've been thinking of it is multi dimensional, web and infinite web. And at every conjunction, where every place where the where the web meets, there is a infinitely faceted gemstone. And that gemstone, one facet on on any one gemstone is reflecting, and all the all flat fast all gemstones are reflected in every individual gemstone. Hope that that makes sense, right. And so if something is happening in some part of Indras, net, it is going to be reflected in every other part of Indras. Net. So I recently heard someone questioning the focus in Indras. Net on the gemstone itself, because we say, Oh, if we just shine brighter, it makes the net shine brighter, but also, why don't we actually interrogate the web? What is it that binds us throughout this all of space and time. And so I thought that was a really beautiful critique of this spiritual use of the of Indras. Net, but But so, so but I do believe that what happens with us does create ripples that go out in every direction. And I think that we need to be a little bit more proactive than just if I heal myself, the world will heal. If that were true. If that had been true, then, you know, Jesus, and Buddha and Muhammad and everybody else would have already, you know, gotten us there. Right? Yeah, they weren't gotten, you know, as far as I got, and then we would have all benefited from it, right. And so, so that didn't happen. And so the individual journey, just the individual spiritual journey is not, I'm not saying that any of those, you know, bodhisattvas and beings, we're, we're just on an individual journey. But, you know, that brings up the word Bodhisattva, which is, you know, beings who strive to achieve enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings. And so for me, why I am so drawn, there are many reasons I was drawn to Buddhism. But one of the biggest pieces was this bodhisattva vow, you know, this notion that I will not achieve enlightenment, without taking everyone with me, like I am doing this, for the benefit of all sentient beings, like, this is a collective spiritual endeavor, that the singular purpose of my own enlightenment is to eradicate the suffering of all beings. And when we make that are explicit, I found that when I made that more of my motivation in my spiritual journey, then the, the the impact on the work that I did in the world, exponentially improved, you know, it became a much, much more effective thing. And in part, it's because it gets the self out of the way and the ego out of the way. And that, you know, if it's not for me, if I'm not just trying to get myself out of samsara, but I'm really doing this for all of us, then. Then it becomes an end even, you know, the vows where you say, I'll come back for incalculable eons in order to bring everyone with me. It puts your skin in the game, literally, like the skin of this lifetime in the skin of countless future lifetimes are in the game now. So so let's go, you know, let's all go. And so, for me, that's, that's been really useful. It also relates to something my aka my older sister, you know, always says, find a bigger problem. You know, and get Yes, of course, terrible things happen to all of us and other people are suffering. And so, remembering the suffering of others, helps motivate me in a good way. But on the flip side of that is I don't think we're actually going to get anywhere in our social justice movements unless we do do inner work. And I think that is a great failing, of the modern, modern social justice movements. We every gain that we got on the mass scale in the past was driven by spirit. You know, whether it was Gandhi ji, you know, and I'm not saying that was a perfect movement, but there were, you know, but I'm Bianca, every admit gargy by all of these people, right, Dr. King, everybody. What happened in South Africa, spirit drove that there were spiritual songs that were what we meant. We don't have that today. We don't have that today at all. And I think that there's two feelings one is around the collectivity around something so much bigger and more beautiful. And beyond this life for all of us, right? And the other is on the individual level. Like, if we don't have a moral compass that comes from somewhere, we are gonna go off the rails over and over again. And I see this in our movements all the time, that people who aren't doing their inner work, are and are not collectively beholden to a certain set of principles and values, that we are not going to win unless we unless we find our way back to that. And 100% I believe it needs to be secularized in a way that it can be accessible to people of any religious tradition and no tradition whatsoever. Right? Everybody needs to be included in that. But without it, I don't think we're going to win.
Anjali Rao 10:18:51
Yes. And which brings me to this question, which is the relevance of practicality and the significance of practicality. And just before we went to record this, you asked me why I talked about practicality in this conversation. And the reason is for I think, in the Yoga system, we think about cautious for example, as a big part of understanding the Mind Body Spirit continuum, you know, that we are all fractals of our systems are a fractal of the larger cosmos in the universe. And if you were to take the same concept, each individual is a fractal of the collective. Right. So I wanted to kind of bring this into this conversation about the significance of practicality for the transformation of anger, you know, for the alchemy of anger. Any words on that?
sujatha baliga 10:19:46
Yeah, when I think about fractals, you know, they're, they're so beautiful, first of all, visually, they're quite stunning. And as humans, we're just drawn to that those patterns and the repetition of those patterns, give us both a space as a sense of, of order that helps us and also infinity, so to have order and infinity existing simultaneously, like what an incredible gift. So I haven't really thought about this too, too much in the context of anger. But for me, there's a new you can see fractals and people creating them on like cute computer programs and stuff, some of which mirror the gorgeous things that happen in nature. And some of them are a little bit like computer generated in a very angular way, in a very, like harsh way. Or the colors can be harsh, you can change the colors on those, like fractal generators, on your, you know, their apps and whatnot. And, you know, sometimes I think, oh, yeah, like beautiful things, and ugly things can replicate themselves infinitely. And, you know, we do this generationally, right. And we do this, we do this, in how we interact with people around us all the time, right? What shapes we make ourselves into, produces the, you know, the opposite shape on the other side, are not necessarily opposite. But, you know, this, this replication of shape, I think, comes a lot from our emotional life as well, you see one person coming into a new organization that has a negative vibe, and suddenly the walls start to go up. And also the walls are all through an organizational structure. Right. And so, I, I, it relates really a lot to the inner life question, what vibe are we giving off? Or what moral compass are we introducing to a space are what that will replicate itself, it will like it will impact the shapes of the things that are getting produced out of us. And so, you know, for me, let's make them gorgeous, loving and playful and beautiful and trusting and generous. How can we replicate that when our walls come down? It helps. I mean, I've seen this all the time in my very public about my own survivor journey. These words me too, that Tirana Burke came up with our brilliant because it's my constant experience. The minute I share my story, whether it's inside a prison or at an Ivy League law school, wherever I am, the me tools have been flowing for decades, right? And so all of these things are contagions, a good contagions and negative contagions. So, I do think that that's a huge part of the work and anger breeds anger. I also hurt people hurt people. Yeah. And healed people heal people. And so let's let's do let's do B. Let's choose B on that one.
Anjali Rao 10:22:51
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wow. So that you shared with us Jetta. Thank you. Any other words for us today in the moment that we're living where we are witnessing so much on a global scale. Perhaps our nervous systems are really not equity, I really believe our nervous systems are not equipped to witness the heartbreak that is happening in Palestine and Sudan, Congo, like so many places. What would be your counsel? During these times for us
sujatha baliga 10:23:25
now a beautiful question. So I, I titrate, the amount of information that comes into my heart and mind, I am not on my phone 24/7 I don't look at the worst news that is going to be at the top of the headlines in bed in the morning. So I'm not telling us to look away, I'm telling us to look in a way that makes us efficacious. I think that that's one thing, right? And then find something to do about it. Right? Either you spend less time looking and more time just writing one letter to one senator or something. It really helps to do something. Yeah, it takes away the feeling of helplessness. Yeah. And for me, honoring the rage and the shock and the horror that we feel when we are inundated with certain images and pictures and, and, and stories and is is really important. And then cleanse yourself of it. What is your healing ritual, it might be a warm shower, it might be some sort of purification practice, in your own religion, it might be there's so many ways, it might be cuddling with your dog. Like, I don't know what it is for you. But please take care of yourself. It's not it's not an either or two. It's not I'm not saying oh, just sit and put the oxygen mask on yourself first, and then forget that there's someone sitting next to you that also needs help with their oxygen mask, right? Like, but really do put that oxygen mask on quickly, efficiently, early. I start my day in meditation and prayer every day. Yeah, and I think finding your own version, whether it's religious or secular, start your day how you begin, it really impacts the rest of it. So and it's such a gift to give it to yourself, you deserve it just a few moments, even the parents among us, you know, if I wake up a little bit before my kids so that I can, you know, have that have that precious moment for myself and for setting my for setting my myself on the right direction for the day.
Anjali Rao 10:25:36
Beautiful. Beautiful, thank you so much.
sujatha baliga 10:25:40
Oh my gosh, my joy, thank you for your beautiful questions until it's so nice to finally meet you.
Anjali Rao 10:25:45
It's lovely to meet you. And wishing you the best as you write your book, I'm sure it's gonna be powerful and so needed and so supportive of all the people who are, you know, dealing with so much and on their own healing journey. So thank you so much.
sujatha baliga 10:26:03
Thank you have a wonderful day.
Unknown Speaker 10:26:04
Thank you. Bye.
Anjali Rao 10:26:12
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