Jivana Heyman 09:54:34
Hi everyone, its Jivana I just want to come on for a moment and thank our sponsor offering tree. They're an all in one easy to use community back business that saves you time, energy and money as a Yoga teacher. Offering tree allows you to create a website in less than 30 minutes. Plus you get a discount to accessible Yoga. Just go to offering tree.com backslash accessible Yoga to get your discount today. Okay, here's our episode.
Anjali Rao 09:55:04
Welcome to the love of Yoga podcast. I'm your host, Anjali Rao. This podcast explores the teachings of Yoga for self and collective transformation. We dive into how spirituality and philosophy can ignite social change. I share conversations with folks who are on the front lines of justice and liberatory movements, thought leaders, change makers, and healers.
Hello, everyone, and a very warm welcome to the love of Yoga podcast. I'm your host, Anjali Rao. And today, we have with us one of my really, really dear friends and someone who you already know. And if you don't I invite you to know his work. My dear friend Jivana Heyman, a very, very warm welcome. And I'm so delighted happy to be in this podcast conversation with you. As always, we have such a blast when we are just talking about so many things. And today, we will we're going to have this conversation to to you said you wanted to introduce in, interview me in in all the things that I'm doing. And I so appreciate that Jivana that you're here. So first, a very warm welcome. I'm so grateful for all your work and support out of me personally and the work that I do. So a warm welcome. Thanks
Jivana Heyman 09:56:50
so much. Thank you, Anjali. And, yeah, I mean, I just wanted to come on and just say hello to you and talk to you hear publicly because you and I talk privately pretty much every day. But it's nice to do it in public. And mostly I just want to celebrate you and the podcast, but also all the amazing things that you're doing and that you're working on it right now. And I I just noticed that you don't talk about yourself very much. And and that's kind of the nature of having a podcast. I know. But it's also you. And so I kind of wanted to Yeah, how do you feel about that? You want to talk about that? First? How do you feel about talking about you on all your work?
Anjali Rao 09:57:26
I feel like it's like a cultural thing. But sometimes, and it's also my personal personality that I don't really talk much about it. All the things that I'm going through, I'd rather just focus on the quote unquote, work, though it's also related. And I think there's a certain level of difference and humility as a, as a South Asian as a DC who grew up in India, where we are told to not speak about ourselves. And so it's just a balance that I'm only learning. And I know you always encouraged me to be more open about it. And also as a learning for people who are listening and who are also figuring this out, like, Okay, how much of me should I share in how much should I kind of not make it all about me so that there's a balance that we are doing? So I appreciate you asking me those questions. And I appreciate you celebrating me because celebrating the work also, because that is so special. And we need that we need that community, we need that friendship. When we're happy when things go well, and people who are you know, they're free when things don't go well.
Jivana Heyman 09:58:36
Yeah. I mean, I get it, I think I mean, as a Queer person, I also tend to kind of hide and be a little shy, and it's taken some work for me. But, you know, I just feel like there's so many amazing things happening in your life right now. And I wanted to talk about them. Can I can I say what they are? Do you want to share? I mean, there's just like two really big things that I know of maybe more that I'm very excited about.
Anjali Rao 09:59:02
I think that's enough to get things
Jivana Heyman 09:59:10
yes, you want to say?
Anjali Rao 09:59:13
Yeah, no, first Yes. First of all, I have been accepted into the Ph. D program, which I'll be starting in the fall. And as a 50 year old to embark on this like pretty rigorous academic journey is is daunting and also kind of nuts a little bit. Yeah. But I agree boatride daunting, and that's
Jivana Heyman 09:59:38
yes. And I'm jealous. And also not because it's like, it's like a dream. I mean, I can't imagine like, I would love to do that I also can't imagine doing it, it just feels like, I mean, I'm even older than you. But it's just so hard at this point, you know, in our lives, like, you know, we've already had a family, you've had a whole life and a whole career really, and it's like now almost starting over, it's just, I'm just so impressed with your, I don't know, just intellectual curiosity and willingness to learn. Still, I just think, you know, when we get to this age, it's hard to be a student like that. And so I'm just, I'm really blown away by it actually. So
Anjali Rao 10:00:15
it is a real privilege, I have to say that, that that getting to this point, and being a student is a privilege like no other. And I wanted to kind of invite everyone who is listening to, you know, also always be a learner, first and foremost, in whatever capacity that we can be a learner, and spaces we can be learning. I thought that this was a good point for me to start this personally, and, quote, unquote, professionally, my children are a little older. They don't need my personal, you know, involvement in their lives as much as they did. And I also feel like academia has got such a such a sense of elitism around it. So I struggled with that also, in some way. Like, am I am I going to be joining people who are, you know, sort of elitist. And at the same time, I know that there is a rigor that I'm really craving in my own work in my own research. So that sort of I know that I needed framework to a scaffolding to really hold me in that providing me that rigor that into this particular work that I'm doing and and pure pure who peers who will sort of moderate me, and it would their own work and their own research methodology. So I don't, I knew that I was lacking in a few things and getting some methodology. Part of it figured out, I've been going very intuitively in what I do, and I needed that. I think. And for I, I also want to disrupt elitism in academia.
Jivana Heyman 10:02:15
I was gonna say, I wouldn't worry about I don't worry about you becoming an elitist or being with those people, you'll you'll bring them down.
Anjali Rao 10:02:27
I hope so in the best possible way. Yeah, no, I do think I have I've encountered elitism. I mean, just just before we started this conversation, I was I was just sharing, you know, it's to get to this point has not been easy. And yes, I acknowledge all the privileges of of being a student, and the fact that I even can afford it. In this particular time, is absolutely a privilege. But also I have been, I have heard No, I have been rejected. So I want to kind of name that because I have reached out to so many people, while getting recommendation letters, for example. And, you know, people, some people like yourself, were so supportive, and you know, you wrote, wrote those letters for me. And then there was some people who said no, and because they haven't seen my academic quote, unquote, writing, which is true, but how would I write if I wasn't in the space and wasn't given the chance to write? Right, right? It's like you people want to see your job record or employment records even without? But what if you've never had a job, you know? So it's like that it's, I've gotten rejected, and it's not been, you know, a cakewalk for me also. So I'm just trying to hold all of that in this moment. And you know, the second thing is that my proposal got accepted to write a book. And I also want to name that it was you who kind of put that idea in my head. Two years ago, I think as soon as we started working together in in some course, I remember you saying you need to write this. And I was like, what me, you know. So it is, again, that whole thing of not feeling that you're ready. And we've done a course together about impostor syndrome. And that keeps coming up for so many of us all the time. Yeah. And again, that that process also has not been an easy one because of the topic that I'm writing. If people are not either cognizant of the topics, or they feel like it's not important enough, or they feel it's too academic, and it's too niche. So I've been rejected for some, like at least two times, by publishing, you know, or whatever, publishers. And finally, I found somebody who I, well, I think we had an alignment, in my in our vision for the work. So
Jivana Heyman 10:05:02
it's an example of how you're already taking the academic information and making it accessible. I mean, because a book alone, like, you could just go into the study, but to already be working on a book before you even started a doctorate program. I mean, like, you're already trying to share the information with with us, you know, with those of us that aren't getting doctorates, but could it maybe at least read your book. So
Anjali Rao 10:05:28
that is really my hope for the book. Actually, it is, it is a hope that I've taken in. And I'm really connecting the work of scholars in the field. Scholars, like historians, and linguistics scholars, feminist scholarship, Yoga has taught historians, so really synthesizing all that work and offering it in a way which feels more approachable for folks. And I wouldn't say it's like one on one, I would say it's something which is for people who are curious about these things and don't know how to place those questions. I'm offering a place to hold questions.
Jivana Heyman 10:06:07
So can I ask you, so Okay, so you have these two things, you have this doctorate program, and then you have a book that you're already working on? A doctorate program starts in a few months, and then the book is doing a few?
Anjali Rao 10:06:19
I'm not, I'm totally not.
Jivana Heyman 10:06:23
That's a lot. It's amazing. But okay, but regarding the topic of the book, I just wonder if you could, I know you're in the middle of it. So you can't really talk about it in detail. But if you could just kind of summarize. And also, I'm curious about kind of the why, like, what do you see is like the gap I see it feels to me, like when I talk to you about it, you're always I can see it in your mind, like there's this big gap of I don't know what of work or research or something that you're trying to fill? Is that true? Yeah,
Anjali Rao 10:06:53
absolutely. I think there are a few gaps. A one is a gap between academia, like Yoga academia, specifically. And everyday practitioners, like Yoga, academics are doing their thing in this space. And then there's very, very few people who are actually bringing it into practices, you know, people who are really wanting to learn, and they probably don't know, the questions to ask. So those are the things that that's one thing. And that's one of the things why I wanted the podcast, also to really bring in that sort of scholarship into everyday practitioners. And, and that's been really hard to find those scholars who are willing to share in this very democratic way. And the second thing is that Yoga history itself has had such a lens from European scholarship. And prior to that has been brahminical scholarship. So my an patriarchal lens. So my work is to really look at in some way, look at Yoga history from a non if there is a non patriarchal Yoga history, what is that? And why is it that we have not heard of it? And what are the questions that we need to ask when we are talking about caste, religion, gender? So those are the three questions that I'm asking about how it has shaped Yoga history, and how that history has then manifested in the present Yoga spaces. So that's my basic question. And that's the basic.
Jivana Heyman 10:08:25
I just want to say, you know, I don't know how to say thank you, you know, it's like, I just feel very grateful for that, because it just seems like, you know, for more I am more, I said, it's, it's just hard to imagine even how I could find that information. You know, what I'm saying? Like, I think I see that, especially when you explain it to me, I can see that gap, that kind of hole that exists in Yoga research, I often feel like, I often questioned my own sources these days, like, who is it that I'm actually, you know, reading and, and which translations and why and what was that person's kind of motivation, or perspective on it? And it's hard. It's hard for me to know, like, just around cast, for example, I don't I know you've talked about a lot in the past, but I wonder if you could just summarize it, because I think, you know, a lot of the sources I have, you know, like my teacher, even Swami Satchidananda I mean, there's a lot of cast as I'm going on there that I was just totally ignorant of, you
Anjali Rao 10:09:25
know, yeah, yeah, I think you know, then moody and patches conversations, which I've had on my love of Yoga podcast, really taught talks about caste. And they they bring in their lived experience of being Dalit people in the modern world and navigating it in the diaspora here. My questions are very, very specific about Yoga, and how that manifests and how how Invisibility is like you said, you know, you were you learn from an Indian teacher who, who invisible, who invisible eyes it knowingly or unknowingly. Because it is so insidious, it is in the air we breathe, that is so invisible. And that's why we need to make it more visible and understand that, you know, these are the threads of classism that we are practicing and, and knowingly, unknowingly. And so really, to make oneself more aware of it, and then see how those premises shape the institutions outside, like, it's everywhere. So we Yoga is a microcosm of what's happening in every institution, including the judicial system, employment, medical care, all of that. So it's a I'm just creating a small sort of shift, hopefully, in people's perspectives and understandings of of the prevalence of caste in Yoga history. That's my limit of my inquiry, because it's not my expertise to all my lived experience to go beyond that.
Jivana Heyman 10:11:07
But I mean, that's easy. You can say that easily. But I happen to know that it's not easy to do, because No, it's not. It's like, it's I don't know, it's like the world is stacked against you. I mean, there's like, you know, I mean, it's like all of society is like telling you not to do that. So I just wonder if you could talk about that a little bit. Just because I don't know if I mean, I know people who are aware who are familiar with the topic, already get it, but I just don't think maybe most people recognize they even hear the word cast attack, you know, we can talk about cast ism. And oh, yeah, I can see that. I understand that. But I don't think they recognize the kind of pushback that you get.
Anjali Rao 10:11:46
Oh, absolutely. I mean, more than me for more than me, then Maria has talked a lot about it in, in the work that she has done in trauma, of course, she's faced so much of, you know, including death threats and all that when she talks about Carson, pushback when she talks about cast you to me, to me, I get a lot of it when I talk about Hindutva and religious fundamentalism in Yoga spaces. Yoga is, you know, people talk about Yoga as being this video laboratory practice and parts of it are. And it's also built on many systems, which are, you know, oppressive threads like caste. And so, whenever I talk about that, there is a, there is a lot of pushback, there's a lot of denial, even even there was one post that I made about Yoga, Yoga is from South Asia and not from India. And I talked about the his long history and why I said that, and I got so much of pushback on that, you know, so my work actually is, because it is a very, very vast topic, I'm trying to like really narrow it down to the origins of the, of the caste system and how it is intertwined with the origins of Yoga, and how it is how it is then the stories of Yoga caste, and Hindu quote unquote, religion, if you will, are very, very intertwined. And so my my work is through stories, to really untangle that and I'm using stories because I'm a storyteller. I'm, you know, so I really like to use stories as a sort of a springboard for us to delve deeper. So it's a, I'm trying to not make it very daunting and trying to not make it very, you know, broad rather than me, I would rather make the questions, narrowing it down to few specific questions. So we can go a little bit deeper in those questions.
Jivana Heyman 10:13:46
But I just want to say that, you know, when you you started by talking about how, you know, you have some insecurity, and maybe it's cultural, maybe it's personal personality, but like, I'm just saying, to, to draft to face those insecurities, but also to do it in the face of literal pushback and people telling you that you're wrong and that you're what you're doing is dangerous, because it doesn't fit in with their, you know, politics. Yeah, like I just think that takes a special kind of bravery. So I mean, I'm just saying what you're doing to me is beyond just addressing your own or like overcoming your own personal obstacles. We are also overcoming huge political and cultural obstacles. People that don't want to be talking about this. I I think Yoga or Yoga, whatever call ourselves community or Yoga industry, whatever we call ourselves, that also doesn't really want to be talking about it. You know, I think that the Yoga world, the Yoga world, how about that the Yoga world seems to have just gotten its head around some kind of like, very limited definition of cultural appropriation. And now that's getting blown up again.
Anjali Rao 10:14:59
Like that. Yeah. So I have very few people who actually get paid. Because there are the South Asian practitioners are, like you said, you know, they're being raised in so many ways in so many spaces. So they were trying to like, kind of, get more insular in some ways about the issues of appropriation and appreciation. And I think we have to broaden the definitions. And I talk about that in the book, too, that we have to really broaden the definitions of appropriation, and really place it in context of the history of Yoga. And Yoga is a very complicated term that we are using so easily. But it's really so so much more complex that is so much more dynamic. And it has, it has, like I said, threads of appropriation, from the roots itself from the origin itself. So what we are practicing right now, which we call your guys, is an amalgamation of so many things. And I understand why South Asians push back to South South Asian Yoga teachers push back with my thing, because there is also erasure of South Asian voices in the Yoga modern Yoga word. So that is also there. And we also have to acknowledge that, that that just by talking about appropriation and appreciation as binaries, is not going to dismantle you cast in Yoga spaces. So we have to broaden and acknowledge our own mess and in our own ways of being complicit in in upholding the caste structure in in your responses, or at least understanding how those lineages are perpetrated in the modern, modern. Are you overseen? Hmm? So yes, I will definitely get pushed back. And I will definitely need community to support me support the work. And I hope that, you know, as people read it, they realize that and they see the wall, it kind of opens out the worldview in some way for people to say, oh, yeah, this is the here. So where else? Is it there? Because, you know, that's how racism, and all these things have, we've expanded our own understanding of it. Okay, so if these things are manifested, or in this way, then where else is it manifesting in the world? You know, sort of sort of starting that process of self inquiry.
Jivana Heyman 10:17:29
So, that's so important, I think, because it feels like that's also the challenge within Yoga practice itself, like the Yoga, Yoga practice. And practitioners, I think we want it to be nice and simple and clear. You know, we want we want to, like do our practice and feel better. Yeah. But I think that self inquiry doesn't always make you feel better. Sometimes you have to recognize, you know, the shadow, the hard part, the parts of yourself that maybe you aren't proud of, or that the part of the parts of myself that are, you know, not ethical or not truthful or harmful. And I think that's, that feels much more authentic and honest to me. And yeah, it's something that we generally want to avoid. So I just feel grateful to you for that, just like, I don't know, I feel like you're very open about it. Not too precious. And you're not, I also don't feel like you're protecting a particular perspective. Now. Maybe it's just because we're friends. So I like to hear from you. But I feel like you're open to kind of analyzing in a pretty clear way.
Anjali Rao 10:18:37
I feel like I've been given so much of, you know, safety in some way. Here in the US because as as a as a immigrant and as a citizen, you're I have still not experienced the, the violent pushback, and I might want to write a book and publish it. But as of now, I feel like I'm safer and I have I really ever had community like you. I've had friends who, who have had my back. I remember I've had so much pushback whenever I said something or done something and you had my back and I've really been blessed that I've had that and I have family who are who have my back. I have a family who don't you know?
Jivana Heyman 10:19:29
I shouldn't laugh because it's heartbreaking. And I mean, I just again want to acknowledge that like it's so It's so hard when the people close to you don't agree and get angry and hurt by things you say. Yeah,
Anjali Rao 10:19:39
yeah. So we're talking about, you know, family who are supportive and family, we're not supportive of calling out extremism in our own faiths. And I know you had some pushback to talk about that. Yeah, I
Jivana Heyman 10:19:56
mean, I've just dealing with as a Jew dealing with deines and my own family who are mad that I'm speaking out in support of Palestine, telling me, I'm not really Jewish. I'm not even member of the family anymore, you know, like very hurtful mean things. And I know you go through some, I mean, I don't want to equate them because it's different situations. But it's oddly parallel to what I've heard you go through it for a long time, I'll just say, I'm not reading a book about it. I'm not that brave, you know, I might post about on social media, but you're like going deep. So wow, that's, that's impressive to me.
Anjali Rao 10:20:33
I think I think we have to, at least I feel like I have to, and because it is so directly related to Yoga. You know, it's directly related to our practice, Hindu, the religion, the caste system, it is directly related to the history and the philosophy. So it is time for us to question those things, and really hold ourselves accountable for ways in which we have been knowingly or unknowingly complicit. And expand our notions of, of what liberation is really. And I write this in my book, you know, that we can pursue Moksha like in in a world when we are navigating capitalism and fascism. And so what then what is Yoga? Then, if the ultimate goal for Yoga was moksha? And, you know, liberation? And I don't know about you, I'm not pursuing moksha. I mean, I know I'm gonna come back. Next slide. What is it that I'm doing? You know?
Jivana Heyman 10:21:45
Yeah, no, I agree. And I, in my, in my own practice, I have let that go to you. I don't I don't, I'm not seeking liberation, I want maybe less suffering. I mean, that might be my goal, or I think these days, you know, I still go back to Patanjali all the time. And I'm just really interested in his focus on disarmament. And, you know, I feel like one of the things that I liked the best about what he does just the way he's the way the book is presented, the sutras are presented as like, you know, he, he talks about the importance of discriminant of discernment as like reducing suffering. And then he then he says, and then to be discerning, you practice the eight limbs of Yoga and like, oh, yeah, that's, that's why we do it. It's not just to be enlightened, it's actually to have discernment to start seeing clearly and understanding. I just, I don't know, that feels more. It feels more reasonable to me. And I see that in you, I see how much effort you're making, again, with your video doctorate writing your book, I mean, just like this podcast, the efforts you're making to be discerning and understand what is incredibly complex.
Anjali Rao 10:22:54
It is and the more I that's why I'm like trying to simplify the number of questions I'm asking because it was as I write it, I'm like, Oh, my God came in Yeah, in the book, because the as I write, I realize, oh, wow, this is super complex, I need to write like, 500 pages about it. So obviously, I can't I don't have the expertise also to write so many things. So I have to kind of really get to some of
Jivana Heyman 10:23:18
what that is, I mean, I don't know how much you want to share, but can you say I know that gender is still a big part of it?
Anjali Rao 10:23:23
It is see my whole my whole query started with is there such a thing as non patriarchal Yoga, like, is there such a thing? Yes, people have said, you know, we have we are going to share a sutras from a feminist perspective, or, or Tantra as this and Goddess worship is, quote, unquote, so called feminism or whatever, but it's really not that simple. And whatever it is, when it's however far we go back from whatever I know, so far, has come from a from a sis hat. person, whether it's brahman or not, it's not yet there, but it was definitely a man, you know, from whatever we are reading. So then, and all the translators, all the commentators have always been men. So my question has been always to go to the query of is there such a thing as a non patriarchal lens for Yoga, Yoga philosophy that started getting me into this, obviously, not all patriarchy is this is the same. As a person with caste privilege. I have a certain experience of it as a person and was not from CAST privilege will have a certain lens experience of it. So then I started getting into cast and and of course, as a head heterosexual sis person, and then there is a non binary person. So we are at that started getting me into this whole thing of gender and, and other factors that interplay with gender in Yoga history. So, again, that is such a vast tap topic. So then I had to kind of like narrow it down to what even is Yoga? What even is Hindu? What even is gender according to Yoga, you know? So those are the three big questions I asked, well, how does how does Sanskrit come into play? How does Sanskrit come into play in in the context of gender? You know, so those are some of the interesting questions I'm really getting into into the book. And I hope it helps people to ask more questions, if not to get all the answers, right. I hope people read it and say, oh, yeah, I really want to know this more, and then go into that and research that more. Yeah, that's my hope.
Jivana Heyman 10:25:46
Yeah. And also, I have a feeling it won't be your last book. So you could always address these things.
Anjali Rao 10:25:54
I don't know Gina. I'm like, I'm like, I don't know how people read multiple books. I'm like, my brain is like, on fire right now. I don't know how you're doing it. I don't
Jivana Heyman 10:26:05
know. But it's, it's what I but it also makes me feel better. When I realized, well, I could always write another book later. Because it's like, I don't have to do everything. In this one. The thing about a book that's hard for me, and I think for everyone is like it's so final, like, here it is in Black and white printed on a page. You can't like go in and constantly edit it. At some point, you have to just publish. And that's that's hard to do. Right? That's very
Anjali Rao 10:26:30
hard to do. Because I feel like I'm I'm on my 1/3 chapter now. And I have to give my editor that and I feel like it's never ending, oh, I just read this one more or clearer. This one, it's never ending, you know, so it's very hard. And bear in comes the practice of Yoga to in some way, because we have to release the attachment to it. And we're like, push, I'm done. I am not going to do this anymore. You know. It's really excavating all my, oh my God, my perfectionist samskaras are like on fire. So I have to keep coming back to releasing, releasing.
Jivana Heyman 10:27:07
I know, because I go back, I sometimes I look back at my old books, and I'm like, Oh, my God, or actually, it's funny, because I'll look at them. And I'll think, Oh, that was really good. Or oh, my God, that's so horrible. You know, like, I have both reactions to my old books. Like, there's parts of it that I really like, in part, so I just think, Oh, my God, I can't believe I let that happen. You know? Yeah, absolutely. It's just yeah, it's just have to keep going forward. I mean, there's, there's no other way. But I'm going through it again, you know, because, yeah, I mean, I'm working on another one myself, you know, ever ending.
Anjali Rao 10:27:35
Do you want to share about that book? Or you're not ready yet?
Jivana Heyman 10:27:40
Yeah, I guess I mean, I'm not as clear as you are on it, I don't think I've been, I had an idea of writing a book about making meditation accessible. But now it's not really coming out the way I had imagined. A lot more of my, like I mentioned, the writing itself has become more of a journaling process, which is nice. And I'm and I'm writing a lot of my memories, you know, of, you know, my first teacher, who I hadn't written about very much, who was in Kazakh. Onodera was my first Yoga teacher and my grandmother who taught me Yoga when I was a young child. And just stories of, of what they showed me and taught me in my early experiences with Yoga and meditation. And I think that's, that's not what I expected at all from this book. So now I'm just trying to figure out how to integrate that with something useful for people, you know, something practical, I like to write practical things, you know,
Anjali Rao 10:28:31
but I do think in I'm also guilty of this, that, that I don't write enough of my personal sort of take on it or whatever. But it's, I think, as a as a reader, when I read, like another person's excavations of something, it's always interesting to me, because I feel I can relate to that. I mean, I like I like learning new concepts and practices and techniques and all of that, but I feel like this is somewhat more like, approachable. You know, Michelle does that Michelle has Michelle Michelle. I just wrote a foreword for her book, and illuminating our true nature and I've see how she weaves her lived experiences through it. I'm not good. I'm still learning how to do that. I'm more about like, Okay, this is this is this happen? So I do think that there are a lot of people our students might like that. Yeah, your personal excavations and explorations of sound.
Jivana Heyman 10:29:24
I mean, I've done it a little bit in my other books, but just a little so I do think this one will have more of it. I'm just trying to find a balance because I just, I guess I've gotten into a routine with my books. Like how I share, it's very much how I teach in public, like I write just kind of the same way that I teach. It is teaching. For me writing is just another to share, just like teaching, through social media, even I try to just use all the avenues I have asked access to, but, ya know, when it's personal, it's, yeah, it's just harder. It's just, it's probably helpful. So I think it'll work out in the end, it's just at this point, I don't see it as clearly. But that's, that's often the case with writing, I find that I'll have an idea. And then in the doing of it, it's like, you know, it's like that caterpillar. It's like, it's a caterpillar, and then it's like, mush. And then it's, like, there's the most part, you have to be much. Yeah.
Anjali Rao 10:30:26
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, thank you for, uh, you know, coming here and being a part of this conversation, but also just being a part of the process with me, you have seen the proposal of the book at a very raw level, and you were like, Okay, you have something there, you know, so, I have appreciated your friendship more than anything else. And you're I don't know, it, just your encouragement really has meant so much to me. So I so appreciate you. Yeah,
Jivana Heyman 10:30:57
thank you. I feel the same way. And I'm excited. I'm excited for you. And for us. excited that you're pursuing all of this so intently, I just know that hopefully you don't get burned out. Because I just know you have so much to offer. I'm so excited for the book. And for your doctorate. I know that will take a long time, too. But yeah, just thanks for all the amazing things you do. And for this podcast. I love I love the conversations you have here. It's fun to be here today to be part of it. I'm excited. I guess I want to say one more thing. I'm excited about the transformation of accessible Yoga. You know, I mean, we could talk about it briefly. Because like, you know, the nonprofit basically ended and kind of merged with the school and we took on the programming at the school. And it's really simplified my life in many ways in terms of like, the administrative stuff that I do. I don't have to spend time on fundraising like I am, like I was. And I feel like your energy too. I know that you put a lot of time and energy into the into the nonprofit, and I am grateful for that. But also, I'm glad that you're Freer like that you can do all this amazing stuff that you're doing now.
Anjali Rao 10:32:04
Yeah, no, I think the transformation from the nonprofit or the integration to the school, I think wasn't needed. And I'm glad that it's going well. And it's going the way that you envisioned it. And I hope it continues to because I do think that there is so much need in the Yoga world for the work that accessible Yoga does, in the ways in which it serves us very specific and much needed needs. So I really appreciate the work. And I appreciate all the people who have worked on it, including the board members and the staff, who, you know, continue to push the boundaries of what accessibility means and your own leadership in that. So yeah, I think this is a this was a good thing, though. I mean, I think we all went through that whole grieving process of, of the change, as change always has that. And I think this is the right thing for all of us, including the organizations, and I'm glad that it's going well.
Jivana Heyman 10:33:10
Yeah. And look what you're doing now. Oh, my God.
Anjali Rao 10:33:14
I don't know yet. How would
Jivana Heyman 10:33:17
I know? It's amazing. It's amazing. And so exciting. And, you know, I think that's the thing about change. And I try and trust in that myself that when I let go of something, I have energy or space for something new and something possibly better. And so I feel like I just see it in you like just I don't know if accessible Yoga was taking up that much of your time, but I do see how something has opened you up to take on huge challenges and opportunities. I mean, to get a doctorate and write a book right away at the same time.
Anjali Rao 10:33:50
See, that wasn't planned. It wasn't like I'm gonna do the both of them at the same time. The proposal I did the proposal one like whenever and then I didn't think it will ever be accepted because it is such a niche thing. And it is. People either have told me that I'm too radical or too academic. So I'm not very I'm not an easy read. So I wasn't sure I'd be accepted. So it was a shock that I heard that what I always wanted to do a PhD that was like a thorn in my side that I'm doing all this research, but I feel like it did not have the sort of, I don't know the rigor and the acknowledgement of the Research by by the wider world. So I want to kind of expand the readership with the people who are accessing this because it is needed information we are, we are dismantling so many power constructs. And that work I think is important and I hope people, I'm also hoping to mentor people who are wanting to do this and my lighting up the path has created a whole group of people, Black and brown people who are doing who are wanting to be in this work. So in that sense, I feel like I've created some ripples and shifts. I love and that I think is one of the best things that I you know, as teachers we can do is really get to encourage and ignite that curiosity in the next generation of scholars or Yoga teachers and practitioners really shift culture. So that is always excited me. So I'm really hoping that continues. That's
Jivana Heyman 10:35:35
amazing. That's amazing. So yeah, just reminds me to embrace and accept change.
Anjali Rao 10:35:41
Know, all of us. Well, thank you so much again. And for the listeners. Thank you for listening to juvenile i Converse as we are sitting in our living rooms, having a cup of tea I hope, I hope you listen to this with with some beverage and please share your thoughts. With both of us. I will be taking a short break. We're going to India to visit my parents and I hope to come back in August with a whole new set of conversations for you all. Stay well and take good care of your hearts. Thank you so much.
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
